Sahlman has to be in the GOAT conversation now for HS Distance

nice

Well put, but the Bekele v Cheptegei example is used to demonstrate that PRs should not be the only factor in comparing runners who competed in different contexts. People are claiming that Sahlman is better than many relatively recent high school running legends such as Ritz, Fernandez, and Fisher solely on the basis of his PRs. Such claims overlook important contextual factors such as access to the new super shoes. Just as Cheptegei’s faster (tech aided) PRs don’t automatically make him better than Bekele, Sahlman’s faster PRs don’t automatically make him better than the legends who preceded him.

Flaw here is that there's quite a few guys that would beat Ruin in the 2 miles- 5k distance and a few guys that would beat Lindgren in the 1600-2 mile distance.

Thats where Verbicas and now Salhman come into the picture and maybe even Hunter.

And are we thinking that the Olympic champ back then is on par with any of the recent Olympic champions? Mahkloufi, Centro, Ingebrigsten. Think about the guy that DIDN'T win In Asbel Kiprop. No way a high schooler beats him. Definitely not a Jim Ryun level one.

If you truly believe that is a 1:1 comparison in Olympic level competition you are mistaken. There's no comparison. The sport is simply leaps and bounds above where it was in participation and elite participation.

This comes down to how you define "BEST".

If you define it as simply "the fastest", then the GOAT will always change at the whim of the stopwatch.

If you define it as how they competed vs their peers and vs the world then it comes down to how competitive was "the world".

Ryun and Lindgren's names always comes up but there is a valid argument to be made about how professional were professional runners in the 60s?

Everyone's bent on defending their version of the GOAT.
The original post suggested that Sahlman is in the GOAT discussion.
Sahlman may not be the GOAT.
He mightn't even eventually to the ballroom for a dance.
But, he's certainly invited to dine at the table with the rest of the GOATs.

Gerry Lindgren
Jim Ryun
Marty Liquori
Steve Prefontaine
Craig Virgin
Richard Kimball
Ralph Serna
Eric Hulst
Thom Hunt
Rudy Chapa
Jeff Nelson
Reuben Reina
Alan Webb
Dathan Ritzenhein
Ryan Hall
Chris Solinsky
Galen Rupp
German Fernandez
Lukas Verzbicas
Edward Cheserek
Grant Fisher
Drew Hunter
Nico Young
Hobbs Kessler
Colin Sahlman

This is a big, inexact, approximately chronological list of the greatest U.S. high school distance runners of all time (more accurately, of the past 60 years). As I nearly stated in the 3rd post of this thread, my top-4 or “Mt. Rushmore” is 1. Ryun 2. Lindgren 3. Webb 4. Ritzenhein—I suppose Verzbicas is my #5. Thing is, once Sahlman and a couple others have beaten Verzbicas’s 8:29, I think he’ll eventually go the way of Jeff Nelson, i.e. not nearly as well remembered decades down the road.

Sahlman can displace Ritz if he runs ~3:57/8:28 or better and goes undefeated this spring. Entirely possible.

Lindgren has been the most disrespected great in this thread, generally. Sure, he did a lot of self-mythologizing (insane lying), but the facts remain:

- 8:40.0y on a tiny indoor track in crappy 1964 spikes (could Sahlman match this time given the same circumstances?—I doubt it)

- 13:44 for 5k (a HSR that lasted for 40 years)

- 4:01.5y on a dirt track

-Defeated Soviet pros at 10k to win a USA vs. USSR dual meet

- Won the Olympic Trials 10k over the eventual Olympic champion Billy Mills

- Set what at the time were national HSRs at 3k-2mi.-5k-10k

If Lindgren doesn’t make your Mt. Rushmore, you’re simply mistaken.

What would make you put Ritz above Sahlman or Verzbicas (or Ches)?

Verzbicas was just as dominant in cross country, was a 2x (or 3x if you want to count both FL and NXN) champ and ran 3:58/8:29, so something like 5 and 10 seconds after than Ritz. Sahlman ran 14:03 to break Ritz's record and has already gone 3:58 and 8:33, so significantly faster than Ritz. Ches challenged Verzbicas as a sophomore and then was a 2x champ with a 8:39 to his name.

I think you are right that Lindgren belongs (although I think that the idea that a 160 meter track is enormously slower than any other kind of indoor track is silly, and Lex Young just ran 7:57 for 3K so Sahlman could probaby pop a 7:53 or so), as does Ryun despite the lack of any 3000+ times we know about in HS. But I'm not sure Webb and Ritz's resumes can stand up against 3:58/8:33/14:03 or 3:59/8:29/14:06i

Total Running Productions did a great analysis on Ryun...

My favorite race was when he destroyed Kip Keino to set the 1500 world record in 1967. I think he was 19!

I think Ingebritsen is the only teenager to rival what he accomplished, but Ryun was the pioneer for all others to follow. Bowerman summed up his impact succinctly in the opening line of the above video.

Obviously, Ryun and Lindgren are in a protected class; the distance between them and everyone else is pretty substantial, especially when you place them in their era. That's Important! Mario Andretti is arguably the world's greatest racing car driver, even though the fastest he ever drove would not place in most of today's races. Webb and Ritz are almost in a protected class as well because of the trend you see today, they started. Personally, I think Mt. Rushmore is carved, Ryun/Lindgren/Webb/Ritz...that's it. LV, Fernandez, Hoobs, Ches and now Sahlman, etc., would have to be on their own separate rock.

Thanks for sharing. This pretty well sums it up. Ryun is head and shoulders above the rest any way you care to look at it, be it trying to convert his times to the modern era, or understanding his impact in his era, or understanding his overall historical importance to T&F. Yes, his HS accomplishments were a major part of his overall accomplishments.

When Jim Ryun was running every sports fan knew who he was. He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated a few times. I can’t remember the last time an American distance runner was, maybe Bill Rodgers?

Jim Ryun, and Lindgren , were a cultural phenomena.

If you believe that then you really no nothing about running.

I believe Big S is a fantastic runner. But to equal Ryun he would have to beat Ingebrigsten and P. Tim (last years gold and silver Olympic medalist ) in 3:45 mile.

Ryun is still the second fastest high ever in the mile. So much for the sport being leaps and bounds above Ryun,

Snell wouldn't have even made the Olympic finals this year. Saying that Sahlman would have to beat Ingebrigtsen to be on Ryuns level is laughable, and really shows how little you 'no' about running

I don’t think Snell would have medaled at 1500 if he were training and competing today, but I think he would have made the 800m final as a 1:42-high guy with low 3:30s ability.

Let’s compare resumes:

Did Verzbicas or Ches win a medal in a world junior championship while in high school, like Ritz did? Has Sahlman done so?

Did Verzbicas or Ches smash a significant barrier that no other high school runner had broken in 35 years, or break a venerable record that had stood for 36 years, like Webb did? Has Sahlman done so?

Did Verzbicas or Ches place in the top 5 (like Webb) or top 11 (like Ritz) in their country’s senior level national championship the summer after they completed high school? Will Sahlman?

Has any high school runner in the last 20 years revitalized American distance running in the way that Webb, Ritz, and Hall did?

The classic but, but, but response.

We have no clue if anyone could beat Ryun from 3k-5k. He just didn't run the event. We know as a 19 year old, pretty much nobody was touching him in the 2mile.

In 1973 my Junior year of high school my coach told the distance runners the new California CIF rule would now allow the distance runners to double in meets.

Prior to that runners, at least in California had to choose one distance. So many runners that could have a run a faster mile or two mile didn’t because they would focus on their preferred distance. There definitely weren’t the opportunities back then that runners have today. Heck there wasn’t a California cross country state meet until 1987.

If you look at indoor result lists there is an oversized track asterisk to some very fast times. One example is GF ‘s 7:47 . It listed oversized an not eligible for record purposes.

So the governing bodies recognize that a larger track aids in indoor performance.

In Ryun’s senior HR track season, in a period of 43 days starting on 5/15/1965 Ryun ran 4x under 4:00.0 for the mile; 3 pro level races, and one* HS only competition.

7weeks / 4x sub-4 full miles.

3:58.3 - 5/15/65*

3:58.1 - 5/29/65

3:56.8 - 6/4/65

3:55.3 - 6/27/65