Bold opinion - if Athing Mu wanted to she would demolish the 1500m American record and easily beat every American runner

You are spouting some real nonsense here. Caster ran 49.62 3 months after running 3:59. She ran 1:54.25 in between these efforts. Caster also ran 1:54.77 about the same time she ran the 49.62. So if she wasn’t doing 800m training how is she so fast at 800m, setting her personal best at that time? Caster clearly wasn’t banned at 800m when she ran 3:59. Maybe brush up on what really happened before writing gibberish.

Semenya is also biologically male which makes comparisons misleading.

Despite lots of doping, the best comparisons are probably the fast Eastern bloc women of the mid-70s through early 90s because the regularly ran 1:54 -56 marks.

Of the 28 sub 1:56 runners on the list (excluding xy DSD persons CS and FN) it seems that only 2 runners, namely Kratochvilova, Quirot have sub 50 sec. 400m marks. So it's very rare, despite industrial strength Eastern bloc doping. (All data from WA stats zone, I didn't do double checking).

6 sub 1:56 runners also ran sub 4 1500m: Kazankina, Masterkova, Podkopayeva, Melinte, Dong Liu, Providokhina, most of which have no registered 400m time, or not any good (>54).

This shows that 20/28 of these best 800m runners in history have by far their best mark in the 800m, not that surprising as we know with the deeper fields of men 800m has even more become a specialty (compared with many of the 800/1500 runners from the 1950-80s)

The best combinations (400 +1500, excluding Semenya) seems to have been achieved by Mutola 51.37 and 4:01.50, and Gurina 51.38 and 4:02.47.

So Mu who is almost 2 sec. faster then Mutola in the 400m would need 4:03-04 to beat this combination. This would be a considerable achievement but still two big steps from 3:56.

I have not been comparing Caster Semenya with Athing Mu. Not at all. Just pointing out lies about Caster told by other posters. Truth still matters to some of us.

[quote]Jo72 wrote:

Semenya is also biologically male which makes comparisons misleading.

Key point.

Plenty of guys can run both 400m and 1500m in times that are world class for women.

No world class male 400m runner has ever also run a world class time in the 1500m (did Juantorena? -- did Cruz run a world class 400m? ).

Same statement can be made of women runners -- with the possible exceptions of women who have lots of male hormones.

carmine9 wrote:

[quote]Jo72 wrote:

Semenya is also biologically male which makes comparisons misleading.

Key point.

Plenty of guys can run both 400m and 1500m in times that are world class for women.

No world class male 400m runner has ever also run a world class time in the 1500m (did Juantorena? -- did Cruz run a world class 400m? ).

Same statement can be made of women runners -- with the possible exceptions of women who have lots of male hormones.

+1

I wish we would leave elite 800m runners alone on this site. I wish we stop trying to make elite 400m/800m runners, 1500m runners.

* No F.A.T. sub-46.00 400m man has ever raced a sub-3:30 1500m. [Unlikely to earn a 1500m Olympic medal unless capable of sub-3:30.]

* No F.A.T. sub-50 400m woman has ever raced sub-3:56 1500m. [Unlikely to earn a 1500m Olympic medal unless capable of sub-3:56.]

Simply put: It is impossible to be "World Class" in three events at the same time, only two.

Master Of Lolly wrote:

600yd/600m man wrote:

+1

I wish we would leave elite 800m runners alone on this site. I wish we stop trying to make elite 400m/800m runners, 1500m runners.

* No F.A.T. sub-46.00 400m man has ever raced a sub-3:30 1500m. [Unlikely to earn a 1500m Olympic medal unless capable of sub-3:30.]

* No F.A.T. sub-50 400m woman has ever raced sub-3:56 1500m. [Unlikely to earn a 1500m Olympic medal unless capable of sub-3:56.]

Simply put: It is impossible to be "World Class" in three events at the same time, only two.

Your last statement is another lie. Hicham was world class from 800m through 5000m. So was Said Aouita.

And if anyone says Hicham was not world class at 800m, I can tell you that Hicham’s 3:26 is 1:49.87 pace and you cannot do they without being capable of running 1:43xx.

Aouita probably the most versatile of all time.

Number 1 in the 800m one year (1988); number 1 in the 10,000m another year (1986; per TFN).

whoonose wrote:

Your last statement is another lie. Hicham was world class from 800m through 5000m. So was Said Aouita.

What the hell are you talking about? When was El G ever "World Class" in 800m???

And also learn to read. I said "at the same time". The year Aouita was "World Class" in 800m, he wasn't in 5000m and vice versa.

Nobody ever was "World Class" at both the 400m and 1500m. Two totally different energy systems.

whoonose wrote:

Master Of Lolly wrote:

Simply put: It is impossible to be "World Class" in three events at the same time, only two.

Your last statement is another lie. Hicham was world class from 800m through 5000m. So was Said Aouita.

Hicham el G. was world class at 800m only in your mind. Hicham el G. didn't believe he was world class at 800m. He never raced 800m at Olympics or World Championships. Heck, el G. never raced 800m at African Games, African Championships or Mediterranean Games.

Said Aouita was not capable of earning Olympic medals, 800m to 5000m simultaneously. You are looking at Aoutia earning a 1500m medal at 1983 W.C., 5000m gold at 1984 Olympics and 800m medal, 1988 Olympics.

Do know: Well trained humans are capable of racing 3000m to 1/2 Marathon with only (9 to 10)% pace difference. Also know: 200m/400m athletes often race 200m to 400m, (9 to 10)% pace difference. This explains why the best 5000m runners, male & female are sometimes world class, 1500m to 10000m and often world class, 3000m to 1/2 Marathon. Truly elite 400m to 1500m athletes, even with P.E.D.s cannot occur. How many of you have tried 440yd/one mile or 400m/1500m or 400m/1600m double in same meet? I am not stating 4 x 440yd relay or 4 x 400m relay. It is an achievement for a top 1500m runner to even be a top 5 400m athlete for a team. People have speculated about Jim Ryun's 400m/440yd speed but we have little evidence. Was Ryun even the fastest 440yd/400m guy at University of Kansas?

For this discussion we should leave C. Semenya alone. Semenya did nothing wrong.

I have gotten lost in what some people are trying to prove. Hasan is world class in 800-marathon. That is world class in events that range almost 26 miles but Mu can't be world class in events that range 1100 meters? Of course she can. She probably won't because she is going to be the best 800 meter runner of all time. But she could be world class in the 1500 if she chose to be.

Jagged Jag wrote:

I have gotten lost in what some people are trying to prove. Hasan is world class in 800-marathon. That is world class in events that range almost 26 miles but Mu can't be world class in events that range 1100 meters? Of course she can. She probably won't because she is going to be the best 800 meter runner of all time. But she could be world class in the 1500 if she chose to be.

The original question was Athing Mu being world class at 1500m. You responded to me but you addressed none of my posts or statements in my posts. Your evidence is Sifan Hassan. You only believe Sifan Hassan is world class at Marathon. You have no evidence Sifan Hassan is currently elite at 800m. I am repeating myself. I addressed that S. Hassan set her 800m p.b. over 4 1/2 years ago. Four-hundred metres to 1500m is not 1500m to 1/2 Marathon. Wouldn't it make sense for you to show examples of female sub-50 400m athletes (not C. Semenya). Wouldn't it make sense for you to show sub-45.19 male 400m athletes which is the conversation equal to 49.99 400m racing 1500m at an elite level. In your mind, it simply makes sense to be elite from 400m to 1500m but you offered zero evidence. This may be a training issue. As I stated, S. Aoutia earning Olympic medal at 5000m in 1984 and earning an Olympic medal at 800m in 1988 is not proof of great range. One cannot train to be elite at 400m and at the same time train to be elite at 1500m.

I agree. She wouldn't win the Olympics in the 400 and 1500 in the same year. Hasan isn't going to win the Olympic 800 and marathon in the same year either. Her 800 and 1/2 marathon were only 1 year apart though.

With the exception of the bio-male Semenya (49, 1:54, 3:59) the fastest combination of best 400m and best 1500m time was by Maria Mutola, see above. If one looks into the best 800m runners in history (male or female) one will not find any with BOTH strong 400m and strong 1500m marks. In fact, many with decent 400 marks have no recorded 1500m time and vice versa. As I mentioned above,more than 2/3 of the 30 fastest female 800m runners have NEITHER sub 50 400m NOR sub 4 min 1500m.

Nobody has both, with Mutola having the strongest combination.

Mu is almost 2 secs faster than Mutola in the 400m, therefore is probably more clearly a 400/800 runner. Even if she is the most extraordinary talent in history and gets the 800m WR, it will be unlikely that she runs close to 4 min 1500m and this is still one quality level from 3:55-56.

That someone can be world class in 5000m and Half marathon at the same time has nothing to do with the topic here...

Jagged Jag wrote:

I have gotten lost in what some people are trying to prove. Hasan is world class in 800-marathon. That is world class in events that range almost 26 miles but Mu can't be world class in events that range 1100 meters? Of course she can. She probably won't because she is going to be the best 800 meter runner of all time. But she could be world class in the 1500 if she chose to be.

It's almost like the 800 sits at the intersection between two totally different energy systems in the human body where one is applicable to 800 and below, and another is applicable to 800 and above. That's why we see world class 800m runners range from 25mpw to 70mpw in training.

Where are all of the people claiming that she was done with the mile?