Does anyone else remember Edwin Moses' attempt in the 1983 WC 4x400?
He could not run an open 400.
Does anyone else remember Edwin Moses' attempt in the 1983 WC 4x400?
He could not run an open 400.
mattbolingcoach wrote:
Awsi Dooger wrote:
That is ridiculous. Warholm's record is exponentially more famous than Van Niekirk's race, just like Warholm himself is exponentially more famous than Van Niekirk.
Who cares about the specialized track and field realm, and value assigned to a number? Enter the real world. Warholm's race was heavily anticipated and will be the signature moment and memory from Tokyo. People remember where they were. I have mentioned merely the numbers 45.94 on sites that have nothing to do with track and field, and instantly people know what I am referring to. There is not 1% chance that I could type 43.03 on those forums and have anyone know what it means. And that gap will merely expand over the years and decades.
Van Niekirk's race was not anticipated at all. He wasn't even winning his heats. It just happened, from an outside lane and doomed to obscurity to everyone except track and field nerds. That's why nobody cared about Van Niekirk in Tokyo. The networks didn't feel compelled to do any behind the scenes piece and fill everyone in about the rugby injury, etc. Van Niekirk simply wasn't important enough. Contrast to Karsten Warholm. If he falls off or has some type of life changing situation between now and Paris, the networks will cover it extensively once Paris arrives. They'll recognize that the audience needs to know and wants to know.
Also, the 400 has really fallen from prestige. I don't think it is permanent but currently nobody cares. The tipoff was which events NBC chose to cover live. Those events were mandated to have a morning final in Tokyo so they could be carried live in the United States in primetime. This year the events isolated for that prestige were men's and women's 400 hurdles, men's shot put, and men's 100 hurdles. It is the same thing they do with swimming, when all finals were during the morning so they could be covered live. Meanwhile the 400 was a replayed oh by the way.
Regardless, the reason some 400 hurdlers don't lose much time from their flat time is that they are long striders with a maximizing game plan. They aren't making constant decisions. Warholm just like Edwin Moses 40 years ago uses 13 strides between barriers and attacks the race. He always wants to use his left lead so occasionally he is forced to raise to 15 strides. He did that on barrier 10 in Tokyo. Put Warholm in the flat 400 and all of a sudden his 13 strides mean nothing. He doesn't have a strategic and energy edge over the guy in the adjacent lane. It's a confused hybrid of his 400 hurdling approach and a subjective mishmash of what he thinks he's supposed to do all the way around. Do I accelerate now or later? Consequently it looks mechanical and unimpressive. Basically it's like watching Adam Peaty swim freestyle.
Karsten got attention because he's a Nordic white guy.
Lets all admit this to ourselves.
That's like saying Bolt got attention because he's a Jamaican black guy.
Let's all admit your point was N/A.
The simple fact is both the Woman's and Men's 400mH were arguably 2 of the most anticipated events at Tokyo.
So explain how they are "less prestigious"
Hurno.. wrote:
The simple fact is both the Woman's and Men's 400mH were arguably 2 of the most anticipated events at Tokyo.
So explain how they are "less prestigious"
Is that normally the case though. The 400m is normally more anticipated it just had a weak year. The 400m hurdles are popular becuase you now have 4 world record talents. With the 400m it is the event that's popular and the 400mh it's the current athletes bringing the attention to the event
1500m sprinter wrote:
Hurno.. wrote:
The simple fact is both the Woman's and Men's 400mH were arguably 2 of the most anticipated events at Tokyo.
So explain how they are "less prestigious"
Is that normally the case though. The 400m is normally more anticipated it just had a weak year. The 400m hurdles are popular becuase you now have 4 world record talents. With the 400m it is the event that's popular and the 400mh it's the current athletes bringing the attention to the event
You basically just answered it yourself.
It's the athletes that make the event popular, not the other way around, for the most part.
I think part of it is also, former sprinters are fans of sprints, former distance runners are fans of distance events, former hurdlers are fans of hurdles, same for jumps and throws...for the most part.
Hurdles probably have the lowest participation, aside from pole vault, because they are arguably the most difficult event...let's face it, not everyone can hurdle. Heck, most track athletes can't come close to anything resembling hurdling.
mattbolingcoach wrote:
Awsi Dooger wrote:
That is ridiculous. Warholm's record is exponentially more famous than Van Niekirk's race, just like Warholm himself is exponentially more famous than Van Niekirk.
Who cares about the specialized track and field realm, and value assigned to a number? Enter the real world. Warholm's race was heavily anticipated and will be the signature moment and memory from Tokyo. People remember where they were. I have mentioned merely the numbers 45.94 on sites that have nothing to do with track and field, and instantly people know what I am referring to. There is not 1% chance that I could type 43.03 on those forums and have anyone know what it means. And that gap will merely expand over the years and decades.
Van Niekirk's race was not anticipated at all. He wasn't even winning his heats. It just happened, from an outside lane and doomed to obscurity to everyone except track and field nerds. That's why nobody cared about Van Niekirk in Tokyo. The networks didn't feel compelled to do any behind the scenes piece and fill everyone in about the rugby injury, etc. Van Niekirk simply wasn't important enough. Contrast to Karsten Warholm. If he falls off or has some type of life changing situation between now and Paris, the networks will cover it extensively once Paris arrives. They'll recognize that the audience needs to know and wants to know.
Also, the 400 has really fallen from prestige. I don't think it is permanent but currently nobody cares. The tipoff was which events NBC chose to cover live. Those events were mandated to have a morning final in Tokyo so they could be carried live in the United States in primetime. This year the events isolated for that prestige were men's and women's 400 hurdles, men's shot put, and men's 100 hurdles. It is the same thing they do with swimming, when all finals were during the morning so they could be covered live. Meanwhile the 400 was a replayed oh by the way.
Regardless, the reason some 400 hurdlers don't lose much time from their flat time is that they are long striders with a maximizing game plan. They aren't making constant decisions. Warholm just like Edwin Moses 40 years ago uses 13 strides between barriers and attacks the race. He always wants to use his left lead so occasionally he is forced to raise to 15 strides. He did that on barrier 10 in Tokyo. Put Warholm in the flat 400 and all of a sudden his 13 strides mean nothing. He doesn't have a strategic and energy edge over the guy in the adjacent lane. It's a confused hybrid of his 400 hurdling approach and a subjective mishmash of what he thinks he's supposed to do all the way around. Do I accelerate now or later? Consequently it looks mechanical and unimpressive. Basically it's like watching Adam Peaty swim freestyle.
Karsten got attention because he's a Nordic white guy.
Lets all admit this to ourselves.
I wasn't my intent to put it so bluntly but the truth is the truth. The fact that there are Americans who were rooting for KW over Rai tells you all you need to know.
Yes this is true to an extent but the 400m is going to an event people watch regardless of the athletes but the same isn't true for the 400mh.Many hardcore fans watch all events but many just watch the prestigious events. The 100m was popular long before usain and the 400m before micheal Johnson.
It's the same for the steeple vs the 5K and 10K. The only time it got any mainstream attention was due to Emma Coburn and Evan Jaeger. Jaeger got more attention for falling than the guy who won and had been beating him all season.
I dont think he is.He might run a 44.2 at best,which is still super quick.hes a skilled,technically efficient hurdler,and he can run flat out between the hurdles.
^In perfect conditions with all variables in his favour, I don't think he breaks 44.50.
1. Wilbert LONDON 17 AUG 1997 USA 45.17 44.86 -.31 slower
2. Isaac MAKWALA 24 SEP 1985 BOT 45.20 44.47 -.73 slower
3. Liemarvin BONEVACIA 05 APR 1989 NED 45.41 44.48 -.93 slower
4. Karsten WARHOLM 28 FEB 1996 NOR 45.51 ?
5. Vernon NORWOOD 10 APR 1992 USA 45.59 44.64 -.95 slower
6. Jochem DOBBER 08 JUL 1997 NED 45.75 45.07 -.68 slower
7. Ricky PETRUCCIANI 30 JUN 2000 SUI 46.42 45.02 -1.4 slower
8. Charles DEVANTAY 14 FEB 1998 SUI 46.93 45.81 -.1.12 slower
in bold is the SB for 2021, and then the difference
average slower is .87 slower...so theoretically warholm was capable of 44.64 and it fits right in with the guys 1-5 place
El Keniano wrote:
mattbolingcoach wrote:
Karsten got attention because he's a Nordic white guy.
Lets all admit this to ourselves.
I wasn't my intent to put it so bluntly but the truth is the truth. The fact that there are Americans who were rooting for KW over Rai tells you all you need to know.
There's Americans that rooted for Bolt over Gatlin, so what's your point?
And you need to distinguish the difference between "rooting for" and "expecting to win." I think it was more of the later.
If we're making predictions, I now who I'm picking to win.
I can play your game too. Warholm had people rooting against him, in fact there was a lot of hate directed at Warholm here and on other platforms, I wonder if that's due to his skin color, sure seemed like it. Also, what's up with all the doping accusations, barely any for Benjamin though. Read those threads and tell me they aren't racist. How about all the hate for Jenna Prandini, what's up with that? Nobody I saw was really rooting against Benjamin. Maybe they're out there, but I didn't see anything negative get said about Benjamin.
If you think the predominant reason Warholm got attention is because he is white...you are an idiot.
llort_vbo wrote:
The Unkle wrote:
Assuming you have run several flat 400m at your highest level of fitness, yes, absolutely think it impossible to run a 400 m hurdle race that is less than 2 seconds slower than your open pr.
We’ve been over this a million times on LetsRun. You can’t assume someone to a performance they haven’t run. You’ve been provided with at least 4 runners who are 47.0x or faster and they’re all well within +2s compared to their open PR. So that’s 4 out of the top 6 performers in history and you’re still trying to push this argument?
Right so maybe Warholm can't even do 43.9 because he hasn't run that fast yet.
coach wrote:
Does anyone else remember Edwin Moses' attempt in the 1983 WC 4x400?
He could not run an open 400.
I know.
That's why the winning team, the USA, ran him as anchor in both the semis and finals that year.
El Keniano wrote:
800m training is applied science wrote:
The way most 400m hurdle athletes get their start is not directing from under performing in 400m dash. Most 400mH athletes start from not sprinting as well versus their peers in 100m which, depending on gender turns into 100mH or 110mH. At some point, some athletes believe they will do better versus their peers in 400mH. With modern shoes, modern tracks and everything else, I consider 44.50 F.A.T. 400m world class 400m. Are some of you on this thread still trying to make K. Warholm a world class 400m dash guy? K. Warholm is a 400mH guy. That is what he is. Arguing if 400mH athletes are inferior athletes is like arguing if 100m butterfly swimmers are inferior swimmers to 100m freestyle swimmers. Maybe, but they all get medals for winning.
You said it yourself, hurdles are track's version of the butterfly and the walk could be the breaststroke. Fortunately, runners don't have to run backwards for their version of the backstroke.
We're not calling them inferior athletes, just that their events have lower profiles and prestige. The whole world stops for 10 seconds for the 100m dash for which there was a huge upset this year. Few, if any, people not into the sport hardcore watched or remember who won the 110mH. That confrontational and ungracious Sha'Carri woman wouldn't be getting the same attention had she been a hurdler. There's a reason KW wanted to try out the 400m in Lausanne and Steven Gardiner isn't rushing to try out the hurdles. Which reminds me, btw: after her double 200m/400m triumph in Atlanta, Marie-Jose Perec contemplated switching to the 400mH because of "unbeatable" world records in the sprints.
I need to go back and augment my response to you. After further thought, comparing Karsten Warholm and 400mH athletes to butterfly swimmers is actually not fair to butteryfly swimmers. Most butterfly swimmers cannot win Olympic medals and World Championship medals as freestyle swimmers but some butteryfly swimmers have been able to do so. Eg. Michael Phelps was a butteryfly swimmer. Michael Phelps won six individual Olympic gold medals in 100m butteryfly & 200m butteryfly combined. Michael Phelps did also win one individual gold medal in 200m freestyle. Eg. Sarah Sjostrom is the world record holder in 50m & 100m freestyle, the two premier swimming events in my opinion and Ms. Sjostrom has won an individual 100m butterfly Olympic gold medal.
In T&F, we do not see overlap in success in hurdle races and sprints as is possible with freestyle swimmers and butterfly swimmers.
I was trying to be respectful in my previous post to K. Warholm. He did earn his Olympic 400mH gold medal. Some posters are continuing day after day to state K. Warholm is secretly a world class 400m man. I need to be direct today: Karsten Warholm will never make it to an Olympic or W.C. 400m final. [I have stated I would love to see Olympic & W.C. schedule expanded to 12 days to allow more doubles. Even if no overlap with 400m and 400mH schedule, no 400m final for K. Warholm.] K. Warholm, past his 25th birthday will never under any circumstance sprint a sub-44 400m and I doubt he will ever sprint a sub-44.25 400m. Why can't his fans be happy with his success? Michael Phelps fans have had enough restraint over the years to never label Michael Phelps the best freestyle swimmer ever. It is time for Karsten Warholm fans to be equally reasonable. {It seems as if management prefers I post under my registered name.}
Angelo Taylor was a 400m sprinter AND 400m hurdler who averaged +3.28s between his 400m open and his intermediate hurdling in seasons where he contested both events; someone mentioned earlier that the average of world class hurdlers is about 2 seconds, so Taylor's outside these dimensions.
The lowest differential Taylor ever had between races was +2.61s in 1st season running both events.
At Taylor's finest hour, a 44.05 in the 400m, he was +4.40s adrift in the hurdles (48.45)
Yearly 400m/hurdles bests/differential:
1997 NT - 48.72
1998 NT - 47.90
1999 NT - 48.15
2000 44.89 - 47.50 (+2.61)
2001 44.68 - 47.95 (+3.27)
2002 44.85 - 48.87 (+4.02)
2003 NT - NT
2004 NT - 48.03
2005 NT - NT
2006 NT - NT
2007 44.05 - 48.45 (+4.40)
2008 44.38 - 47.25 (+2.87)
2009 45.15 - 48.30 (+3.15)
2010 44.72 - 47.79 (+3.07)
2011 44.82 - 47.94 (+3.12)
2012 44.93 - 47.95 (+3.02)
Warholm's predecessor specialised in the 400m and ran on 5 World Championships and 2 Olympic relay teams, yet he could not break 44-flat. Warholm, in my opinion, isn't a 43.xx talent just because he ran a 45.xx in the hurdles and has a 32.69 300m best (intrinsically faster than his 44.87).
The Unkle wrote:
coach wrote:
Does anyone else remember Edwin Moses' attempt in the 1983 WC 4x400?
He could not run an open 400.
I know.
That's why the winning team, the USA, ran him as anchor in both the semis and finals that year.
They ran 3:05 and got 5th place. How are you seeing them as the winners?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_World_Championships_in_Athletics_–_Men%27s_4_×_400_metres_relayllort_vbo wrote:
The Unkle wrote:
I know.
That's why the winning team, the USA, ran him as anchor in both the semis and finals that year.
They ran 3:05 and got 5th place. How are you seeing them as the winners?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_World_Championships_in_Athletics_–_Men%27s_4_×_400_metres_relay
I stand corrected.
They won the semis in a much faster time than they ran in the finals.
Presumably Moses bombed in the finals which is why coach brought this up.
And idea what his split was in the semis?
The Unkle wrote:
coach wrote:
Does anyone else remember Edwin Moses' attempt in the 1983 WC 4x400?
He could not run an open 400.
I know.
That's why the winning team, the USA, ran him as anchor in both the semis and finals that year.
They didnt medal in that race.
The Unkle wrote:
llort_vbo wrote:
They ran 3:05 and got 5th place. How are you seeing them as the winners?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_World_Championships_in_Athletics_–_Men%27s_4_×_400_metres_relayI stand corrected.
They won the semis in a much faster time than they ran in the finals.
Presumably Moses bombed in the finals which is why coach brought this up.
And idea what his split was in the semis?
It's not that he bombed in the finals- he was far behind when he got the stick- it's how he ran it relative to how smoothly he runs the hurdles. He and other hurdlers perfect a rhythm, in Moses' case his 13 stride pattern.
In the finals he didn't appear to pace himself properly he raced like a HSer.
The 400 and 400 hurdles are quite different