To all of you who have been saying the super spikes don't work, did you see that? 10 guys just broke the NCAA meet record. LOL.

raging clue wrote:

People who are dyed in the wool believers in the super spikes shaving off massive time from long distance track races are the same people who believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster. No doubt the shoes help, the technology is always improving. But to suggest it shaves off even a second a lap is a slap in the face to the athletes.

This this this. I’ll die on this hill. Keyboard warriors trying to undermine the hard work of athletes is so weird. Why don’t you all go out and try to run what they do in these super spikes. I can’t wait to watch you not break 6 in the mile. Freaking indulge me.

Also even if it helps a little: WHO FREAKING CARES. Top times are set in this year and this moment. Everyone has access and a fair playing field.

malmo, that video says winning time was 28:34, not 28:01.. different race?

malmo wrote:

Those springy spikes work well in perfect conditions ... BUT .... I wonder how they would respond on the day that Nyambui ran that 28:01 in a sauna? I'm thinking Bataan Death March

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI_KzQ6DfPY

rojo wrote:

People take it out with rabbitts every year at Mt Sac/Stanford, etc.

It's amazing to me how people won't accept the facts. I showed you that there have been more sub-28s this year than the last 10 y ears combined. Counting all meets. Tons of guys have tried to run fast over the last 10 years - stanford, mt. sac, etc.

You've got coaches painting over their sponsor's logos and you won't accept it.

Stop saying Mt. Sac, you're making yourself sound old. Nobody goes to Mt. Sac anymore for the 10k. They get like 1 qualifier per year coming out of there.

Up until yesterday, this year was a little better than previous years, with 5 guys under 28-minutes. But the anomaly all happened in one race. A race with ideal conditions, a race everyone is peaking for, and a race that had a rabbit towing the field through 7k.

You want facts, fine, these are facts. 8 of the 10 guys who broke the meet record hadn't previously run under 28-minutes. What was different for them? The race and timing of it were different, nothing else. You gonna tell those 8 guys all had different shoes 2-months ago? Really?

The other two guys who broke the meet record, one of them ran slower than earlier in the year, the other ran a 5-second PR. Both were at the front of the race the whole way, towing everyone else along behind Kiptoo.

It's easy to PR when you're in peak form, with perfect conditions, and perfect rabbiting, when all you have to do is get in line and following along with everyone else. No thinking required. You aren't really racing, you're just running, holding that red-line as long as possible.

I've told you before, the shoes are helping. Most agree. But it's not near the degree you think it is.

Show me on the doll where the Nike Zoom Dragonfly touched you.

espnsucksballs wrote:

fxhjb2 wrote:

Doesn’t matter, the times ran at the ncaa 10k this year would have beaten out ‘92 Olympic final. Most major world championship in the 90s were won in and around 27:30/27:40. You think Dever and Mantz are the same caliber runner as Skah and Chelimo?

Wait wait wait... you’re trying to compare 1992 to 2021? There has been so much development not only in training but more nutrient and literally every aspect of being an athlete day to day. Ok if you want to compare it to something let’s do the Olympics in 2016. Mo in 27:05 and tactical. Or the WR Bekele 26:17 in 2005. Get out of here 1992 and what was probably a much more tactical race (and I do remember them running some 66s 67s).

Go rewatch it. It’s hardly the race you described above. The bronze medalist wouldn’t have even been in the top 10 at ncaa. Chelimo is one of the greatest distance runners ever. I highly doubt that anyone in that ncaa field was as competitive or dedicated or trained as hard. Same could be said of Skah and probably a dozens others that ran in ‘92. Williams alone was more talented and trained as hard as anyone.

rojo wrote:

good god stop it wrote:

Rojo is running out of points to talk about. When was the last time the 10k actually had someone take it out? I’ve watched the past 5 years jog and jog til 3k to go and then it picks up. Rojo who hurt you???

People take it out with rabbitts every year at Mt Sac/Stanford, etc.

It's amazing to me how people won't accept the facts. I showed you that there have been more sub-28s this year than the last 10 y ears combined. Counting all meets. Tons of guys have tried to run fast over the last 10 years - stanford, mt. sac, etc.

You've got coaches painting over their sponsor's logos and you won't accept it.

I agree that it's amazing how people deny the obvious. It could not be more clear that the shoes are creating distorted results.

It brings back memories of the tailwind aided 2011 Boston Marathon that Geoffrey Mutai won in 2:03:02 and Ryan Hall was 4th in 2:04:58. I remember people...Renato Canova...being one of the most prominent...trying to say the wind barely had any effect...which of course was ridiculous when you look at results before and after that year. They just didn't want to believe it.

fxhjb2 wrote:

Doesn’t matter, the times ran at the ncaa 10k this year would have beaten out ‘92 Olympic final. Most major world championship in the 90s were won in and around 27:30/27:40. You think Dever and Mantz are the same caliber runner as Skah and Chelimo?

This is a strong point! In the same way that 5-different high school state meets were won in a faster time than the Olympic 1500 final in 2016.

fxhjb2 wrote:

Go rewatch it. It’s hardly the race you described above. The bronze medalist wouldn’t have even been in the top 10 at ncaa. Chelimo is one of the greatest distance runners ever. I highly doubt that anyone in that ncaa field was as competitive or dedicated or trained as hard. Same could be said of Skah and probably a dozens others that ran in ‘92. Williams alone was more talented and trained as hard as anyone.

It is completely unsurprising that top-NCAA runners would clean the clocks of Olympic level athletes from 1992. They were training in the stone age back then. Talent doesn't matter if you don't develop it. Neither does effort if it's not applied properly.

espnsucksballs wrote:Keyboard warriors trying to undermine the hard work of athletes is so weird.

These athletes aren't working any harder than athletes in years past.

If these athletes want to show off their hard work, wear old school spikes. Especially if the shoes make no difference. That way nobody can credit the shoes.

INSTEAD, they all go out and buy the new Nike shoes. They play arts and crafts to cover the logo. Why would they do this if the shoes make no difference? Why would they do this when it results in people crediting the shoe not the athlete?

BECAUSE THE SHOES PROVIDE A HUGE ADVANTAGE.

Well, the fact that they had just had xc nationals at 10k in March, less than 3 months ago, and then got to run this 10000m in good weather, which rarely happens at NCAA track, plus having a pacer, probably had a little to do with it. We've had an NCAA runner at 27:08 in Sam Chelanga at Payton Jordan and Chris Derrick ran 27:31. So, we've known there were plenty of NCAA runners of this caliber. We just didn't see them running fast 10k's on the track most years, because most would just get an easy qualifier and then have a slow NCAA final in the heat and humidity with no de facto pacer.

It's funny how the same people who go overboard with the 'super shoes' thing tend to also be the ones who maintain that East Africans are 'natural runners'

Between 1900 and 1989, zero Kenyans broke 3:33 at 1500m. In 2001, eight did so. In the last 3 1/2 years, many of them running in super shoes, only 7 did, and 2 have been suspended by the AIU.

It wasn't until 1989 that a Kenyan ran under 13:05 for 5000m. In 2001 nine did so. In the last 4 1/2 years, many of them.running in super shoes, only eight did, and one of them has been suspended by the AIU.

In 2001 the population of Kenya was 33 million. In 2021 the population of Kenya is 55 million.

Between 2001 and 2021 the GDP rose massively, infrastructure improved, diet improved, training facilities improved, the number of expert coaches improved, and now the shoes have improved.

The only thing that didn't improve was the ability to purchase and use EPO and evade testing for it.

"Diet" FTW.

I think the spikes help, but the way people debate it and the absolutely weak and asinine ways people agree with me on it make me roll my eyes. You'd think World Athletics had legalized blood doping the way some people talk about it.

CinqueMinute wrote:

malmo, that video says winning time was 28:34, not 28:01.. different race?

[quote]malmo wrote:

Those springy spikes work well in perfect conditions ... BUT .... I wonder how they would respond on the day that Nyambui ran that 28:01 in a sauna? I'm thinking Bataan Death March

Good catch. 1979

Still on this, huh? I don't think anyone is saying the shoes have zero impact. It's more the way that you discredit any fast time & harp on shoes more than you should. It takes away from the performances and ignores any other variable at play.

Do you think training for a year without racing as much and without a normal class schedule helped? Do you think having good weather helped? Do you think a fast pace from the start in the biggest race of everyone's career helped? Do you think it helped that this is a race everyone peaked for?

We get it, shoes. But also, try to dig a little deeper because it's not the only thing contributing to fast times. A bunch of guys broke 28 & your immediate reaction is to troll their times. Maybe give it a day or two and try hyping up the sport instead of making it less appealing.

Cant "admit" something I never denied in toto.

The shoes helped a little, but my inclination is to attribute this development to the athletes, their training, talent, and heightened motivation. Lots of improvements contribute to better results on the clock: facilities, organization, and training, diet, psychology. It's like reaching higher notes on a horn: once you reach one level it becomes the standard (and sort of comfortable,) then the goal goes...up, and the next step becomes th we standard. Repeat. It's not the horn or the mouthpiece, it's the player.

Look at the chart with the number of sub 28 min performances that Rojo posted. there is CLEARLY something abnormal going on.

You want us to just bury our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is normal? Two world records in the 10k in 2 days, really fast times in the 5k yesterday, all around fast times at the Ethiopian Trials, 11 guys under the previous meet record in the NCAA 10k. Sorry, to any sensible person this is highly suspicious.

In the fast-from-the-start women's 10K, zero runners beat the NCAA record, or even got within 57 seconds of it.

Do these spikes work on ladies?

They are not running fast enough to wear/need spikes.