Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

yeah there could be good kenyan cyclists but just like in every other country, there is not ONE kenyan athlete who is among top-100 in swimming,cycling or triathlon.

There are more than a handfull of kenyans or people off kenyan heritage who live abroad and have access to bikes, swimming facilities etc. but not a single world-class endurance athlete in another sport than running.

I believe if you put 10 28min 10k kenyans against 10 30min 10k american/european runners, both groups with absolute no cycling background in a bike race it will be a tie or even a victory for the caucasian runners.

I agree with you on the reasons for the decline of european running in the last 20-years but its not the important difference.Mr.Canova, first you tell stories about how lazy Nicholas Kemboi is, taking months off despite being the 4th best 10k-runner ever and then you come-up with statements like the kenyans are not as soft as non-africans, thats ridicolous!Marius Bakken once posted that there are by far more young runners in the US than in Kenya(in % to the population).

I saw an interview with Dr.Rosa once and he said:If you are a kenyan its easy to become a good runner, thousands of years without industrialisation formed the body of the kenyans.

There was also a research by some denish doctors, they took two group of teenagers:one of kenyans, one of denish kids.

They protocolled their activity in the past, activity now, put them on a trainings program, did some treadmill tests and finally a 5000m-run.

They found out that the denish boys lived a much more active lifestyle, could push them self harder on the treadmill test(higher max.lactic acid value), had higher Vo2max-values and guess what happend in the final 5k run...the kenyan kids ran 2min faster on average!!!

Non of these kenyan kids was running to school or something, lazy guys who played soccer or basketball ocassional.They did lots of research and research, musclebiopsy, more treadmill tests...no explanation then they remeberd of an old test where they found out that running efficency goes down a lot if you put some weight around the ankle and then they started to measure the volume of the lowerleg of kenyans and found out that there was an incredible big difference between europeans and kenyans.So basically the conclusion of the whole research was that kenyans are born with supreme biomechanics for running and that their main-advantage.

Renato, your second to last post is one of the best that I've ever read! Very well stated, and thank you for it! One must look at the entire past, and not just the present situation, when evaluating this issue.

Do not think that the posts disagreeing with you represent the majority of readers here.

Ne-now, may be that my English is not very good, but I think that is possible to understand what I want to say.

Your arguments are very much debatable, and I want to reply to you discussing what you say.

1) Do you know some person (of every Country) that goes to live abroad, starting ABROAD a professional sport ? I suppose that, if a Kenyan goes to live in another Country, is only for two different reasons : a) he has a very good opportunity of working at higher level than in Kenya (for example, in some University or in some important enterprise, or because he's a political man) and 2) because, not having any specialization, hopes to find some job abroad for improving his life. In this two situations, do you think that someone has time and motivation for training in PROFESSIONAL WAY as cyclist or swimmer ? You are completely out of reality.

2) I agree with you that, if African runners of 28 try to have a competition with a bike against white runners of 30, are the white athletes to win. But the reason is very simple : AFRICANS ARE NOT ABLE TO USE A BIKE ! If you see in Kenya the type of bikes generally used, you can agree with me. Kenyan bikes are usually chinese models. The saddle is very high, people pedale on the top of their feet with their legs completely straight, they have no gears, and is very evident that nobody has any knowledge of biomechanics, using very wrong positions. So, your analizys starts from not correct bases : in our Countries, 90% of the boys learn to use a bike when are very young, in Africa the percentage is very little, and the way of using not technically correct.

3)The fact of Nicholas Kemboi is a personal situation that happened because the guy was confused for many reasons, not connected with his activity. I never said that Nicholas was lazy when he trained very hard for two months in 2003 improving till 26:30. I said that he was "lazy" when he finished to train hard for other reasons.

In 1999, Christopher Kosgei, elder brother of Stephen Cherono, that was my first World Champion, was very serious from October 98 till August 99, training very hard. During that period, he could be an example for every one. Soon after winning the title, became completely lazy, finishing his career without any reason, in very good health and without physical problems. This doesn't mean that ALL KENYAN ARE LAZY, and doesn't mean that CHRISTOPHER WAS ALWAYS LAZY. This means that CHRISTOPHER FINISHED HIS CAREER BECAUSE BECAME LAZY FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT REASONS. Don't do the mistake of changing some particular situation in general behavior.

4) Regarding what Marius Bakken wrote, sorry, but I don't agree. In western countries there are a lot of runners OLD and AMATEUR, but very few runners in agonistic and competitive way. In Africa, competitivity is the base of the activity. In USA and Europe, fitness is the base of activity, and young runners are, at the same time, tennis player, skiers, cyclists and global sportsmen. So, the goal is to build their body for having better health and better image, not to try to overtake their limits for running faster (that instead was the motivation of European and American runners of 30-20 years ago, see Lindgren and Prefontaine, for example).

May be that today there are motivated athletes (like Dathan, Webb, Deena Kastor and some other). But the problem is : what type of base they were able to build when very young ? Here there is the difference.

5) Regarding the denish research, you of sure know that, while the datas regarding swedish and kenyan boys present very similar value, the datas regarding runners of 20-25 years are very different. So, if you want to analyze the situation, you can see that the most important difference is due to the physical activity (may be official training or natural training) that the boys do in the age from 8 and 20 years. IS DURING THIS PERIOD THAT WHITE PEOPLE DON'T INCREASE THEIR QUALITIES BECAUSE DON'T DO ACTIVITY ENOUGH, NOT BEFORE, in other case it could be possible to find big difference when the boys were very young. So, of sure there are some genetical differences, but, believeme, the most important source of difference is the different style of life.

When I was young, I remember that normally played 4-5 hours a day soccer or other activities, in the streets near my house, in the center of Torino. In the last 15 years, in Italy is no more possible to stay on the street, because they are so busy and full of cars that you have no place for walking.

In the periferal areas, in Kenya, you can yet see children 3-6 years old running for more than one hour pushing a big tyre of a tractor, or using games that our society forgot.

So, may be possible for a mzungo to be competitive with the top runners, but only growing in areas where the natural activity is yet the base of your life.

With all due respect Renato, and while I certainly agree with you about the importance of societal reasons in producing champions, ULTIMATELY genetic factors are the BIGGEST advantage that East Africans have.

So many of the greatest non-African distance running champions (and I can't go thru a whole list here) were raised in comfortable middle class backgrounds, and were not very different from tons of non-African people living today in terms of childhood activity. So what made these past non-African distance champions so great???(if it was not their poor, hard upbringing, or lack of tv's, etc) Was it the fact that nearly each and everyone of those great white distance runners exericised a ton as a youth (whether it be soccer, or running, or just playing) ??? No. (of course SOME did indeed do that, but just as many did not). What each of these great non-African runners had in common was simple: talent and drive. And so many non-African runners today also have that same talent and drive (Mottram who is 2nd fastest non-African ever in 5k, Ritzenhein who looks poised to run near 27 in the 10k someday soon, or Baldini, Olympic marathon champion). While growing up in poor areas, and where you exericise a lot as young child may help toughen an athlete, and help his development, it is CERTAINLY not a pre-requisite towards being a great distance runner. Talent, and drive is what you need. Now sure, the lack of depth in non-African runners of today does have something to do with white society getting "softer", but a soft society can still produce great runners. Look at Marius Bakken. Did he grow up running to school as 6 year old?? Was he working on a farm for 10 hours a day?? No. He was active as a child I am sure, but his family had $, and he spent time in the US as exchange student, and then returned to Norway. So why is he so good??? TALENT.....and drive to be great (and a very scientific approach to running, something I think you can appreciate). There will always be whites with such talent and drive, but there will ALWAYS BE MORE EAST AFRICANS WITH MORE TALENT and drive.

There have been plenty of African champions who grew up in reasonable comfort, and who were not particularly highly active as children (sure they were active.....but you don't think ANY american children are very active though???). But they DID have East African genes in common with their fellow-champions who ran back and forth to school every day. And that talent factor is the common bond of all champions.

How many East Africans have run 26:30 or better?? 4 or 5 now, right?? How many non-Africans have run under 27:10??? ONE. People......40 to 50 seconds in a 10k is a BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGG difference. C'mon now. It is another UNIVERSE of ability, a whole different league. You can comprehend that, right?? This is not about soft societies, or lack of drive when you get to the TOP of running. This is about genetic brilliance at its highest level.

Did you hear what trackhead and I said about the study on Ethiopian highlanders??? Their blood, at 10,000 feet was as highly oxygenated as a white person living at sea level. This was thought to be impossible. Even other highlanders like Tibetans or Peruvians did not demonstrate that. Why? Because those people's ancestors moved to the highlands later than the Ethiopians, who have been in their highlands for just about forever. So the Tibetans and Peruvians adaptations to high living has been not quite as complete. But the Ethiopians??? Perfection. Think about that, if their blood is as oxygenated at altitude as mine is at sea level, what do you think happens when they come down to sea level to race???? I think you know. Their blood is probably so chock full of oxygen that is a joke.

People are different. The East Africans are different. Occasionaly a white person also is a freak of nature, and he too exhibits extreme talent and success. That's great. But about THIRTY East Africans at 27:10 or under, and ONE non-African??? In the top 55 all-time 10k runners, there is one Great Britain and one non-East African-born American. And that ALL due to our soft societies??? I don't think so. They are beating us 50 to 1 in producing cream of the crop champions. That's an ABSURD difference. And was Mark Nenow great because he ran to school, or because he worked on a farm?? No. He had talent and drive. But again, his talent level was on a completely different scale than the level of talent a Geb or Bekele has.

This has nothing to do with giving up. If anything, Renato's explanation is more of a white flag than mine. Why??? Because Africa will remain poor for awhile for sure, and non-African societies are getting softer every day. So if that societal difference is the big explanation on why the Africans kill non-African runners, then there really is no hope. My talent explanation could be overcome though through superior training techniques(like I said, Marius Bakken is a great example of a scientific approach to running success). Of course I don't know what those exact techniques are, but if you train JUST like an East African, and he has way more talent than you, he wins period. But if you somehow find a way to train SMARTER, and in a superior fashion (and the much maligned exercise scientist could be the one to make such discoveries) than the East Africans train, then again, you could overcome their superior natural talent.

But whether my statements are a sign of

"giving up" or not is besides the point. Facts are facts, and one is better off facing them then living a fantasy in my opinion. Also, by not accepting my explanations, than one often jumps to the conclusion of drugs being the reason for the East Africans dominance, and I just think that is unfair and wrong. Does society explain the lack of great white 100 meter sprinters????? WELL??? of course not. And therefore there is no reason to think that since genetic reasons explain THAT difference ( between sprinters of West African heritage and sprinters of non-West African heritage) than genetic reasons can also explain the difference in distance running between East Africans and non-East Africans.

Renato Canova wrote:

So, the situation is very clear : if African have interest in running, involving the 50% of young people, and Western People has no interest, involving 0,0005 % of young people, of course the winners are Africans.

Renato, this is simply not true.

I spent 12 hours today officiating an indoor track meet in one of the smaller states in the United States.

The population in America is TEN TIMES that of Kenya.

There are MANY MORE COMPETITIVE RUNNERS IN AMERICA THAN IN KENYA.

Tens of thousands of cross-country and track runners who compete, 3 times a year, 4 years of high school, and more still in college.

There is NOT ONE capable of doing what the Kenyans do; there is no 18 year old American running 12:52 and winning a WC Gold (like Kipchoge).

There is American training for 2 months and running 26:30.

There is no American running the Carlsbad 5K AT 17 YEARS OLD and running his first mile in 3:58 (!!!) and running 13:00 TWO STRAIGHT YEARS (like Sammy Kipketer).

And there is surely no American, not one even close with any amount of talent and any background (we are a country of 300 million people, 1/3 of a billion, and Kenya of 30 million, and the number of runners many times smaller), living at altitude, with any diet and any training and any mental toughness, running 4:03 per mile for 5,000 meters, or 4:14 per mile for 10,000 meters, and running an Olympic Gold Medal Championship Record 10,000m with the last 400m in 53.02.

I respect your opinion very much, but it does not explain why it is that so many American distance runners work VERY, VERY hard and DO train properly or quite near to it and yet CANNOT compete with the Africans.

I think Mr.Canova is also defending his point of view because the genetic-argument can become easily an excuse for not working hard.What i want to say is that european/american have to learn what the main difference is and how they can improve in this point.

Lets forget all the research, we dont need this, we just have to use our eyes, when i watch some extreme examples for superior biomechanics:Shaheen,Tergat or the probably most gifted Cornelius Chirchir and then watch some average caucasian runners its obviously that they use much more energy for running.Chirchirs legs...they dont even look like human legs, like a bird or Shaheen..thats not running - just tipping, the back leaning backwards and still looking smooth running 60sec laps.

I think the morrocons who have also a nomadic background and good but not so excellent mechanics seem to do very well and what are they doing:hours of drills everyday from a young age on, the same with the ethiopians.

I dont think that Gebre is the 2nd best talent ever behind Bekele, i guess he isnt even top-10 in biomechanics or in engine power but look how he has trained since an early age:plyometrics,sprints,drills,weights...and a lot of this stuff + the right endurance training.

He needs this superbouncy-stride to perform well thats why he got beaten in muddy xc races(i think he was only 5th in the local-xc-race in when he was discovered).

Its not like only Kenyans have good biomechanics:Craig Mottram has a wonderful long smooth stride, Baumann didnt have the best biomechanics but also a very bouncy stride.

I think thats where young caucasian runners have to work on, strengthen the legs and also the feet to become more efficient runners.

and for the physical argument:

Paul Tergat comes from a rich family, lived 400m next to his school and the only activity he did till he was 18-19 was to play basketball ocassional with his friends.

I walked 2,5km everyday to school and back and then always did atleast 2h of serious sport-activity in a club in the afternoon since i was 12 and well i haven't run 2:04 yet.

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

5) Regarding the denish research, you of sure know that, while the datas regarding swedish and kenyan boys present very similar value, the datas regarding runners of 20-25 years are very different. So, if you want to analyze the situation, you can see that the most important difference is due to the physical activity (may be official training or natural training) that the boys do in the age from 8 and 20 years. IS DURING THIS PERIOD THAT WHITE PEOPLE DON\'T INCREASE THEIR QUALITIES BECAUSE DON\'T DO ACTIVITY ENOUGH, NOT BEFORE, in other case it could be possible to find big difference when the boys were very young. So, of sure there are some genetical differences, but, believeme, the most important source of difference is the different style of life.

quote]

Mr.Canova, you say the difference comes later but the kenyan teenagers in this research ran 2min faster on average in the final 5k-test, they are already 2min ahead at this age!!!

As for the training, they trained both groups exactly the same way, all kids had to wear a heart-rate monitor 24h a day to measure activity and training exactly in the right zones.And these kenyan kids were not country-guys pushing tractors or running to school, i think they were even living at their school.

That is not true at all. I know of no American runner who begins his training thinking, "I best not work hard because I will never catch the Kenyans."

American runners work AS HARD or perhaps HARDER than ANY Kenyan. But too hard--coming off every track session with eyes rolling into the back of the head--is stupid.

?????

Gebrselassie "is not even in the top 10"?

Who, pray tell, is? Only one runner EVER hard run faster.

And, without getting into the discussion of the nebulous definition of talent and what it means, responding to training and improving IS a HALLMARK of talent.

So I do not buy in any way your assertion, Gebrselassie is not among the top 10 ever in terms of talent.

Of course he is.

They do. Most every distance runner I know does a lot of explosive work.

I know people who do all the exercises; hill sprints, plymoetrics, etc., and cannot break 60 seconds in the 400.

There is more to it than just "strong feet" because there ARE people doing the work and NOT seeing results.

He is right....I've got more talent then Geb, but I just sit here at college and refuse to do track because there are not hott babe's on the team.

I've got more talent though... ;)

guys, when i say he is not a top-10 talent doesnt mean he's not supertalented.

Gebre wasnt even the top ethiopian junior in his time despite having trained very hard from an early age, for him consistent good training over years and years was necessary to be a world-class distance runner in oposite to some kenyans who run 61-62 min halfs after 1-2 years of training.

Tergat didnt run at all in his youth and his PRs are very close to Hailes or better, Bekele is a bigger talent, Kipchoge is a bigger talent, Shaheen is a bigger talent, Komen was a bigger talent,Nicholas Kembois is a bigger talent you see...

Again Haile is a phenom and an incredible talent but there are definiertly more talented guys out there.

i wrote that this can become an excuse, not that every athlete thinks so.

You have to spend an large amount of time on mechanics/running form from an early age on , two words:Seb Coe, was only a mediocre runner when he was 13-17 years old, 10-20secs behind Ovett and Cram at this age in the 1500m but his father let him work like a madman on his running form, 5-7 years later he runs 1:41 and 3:30.

I've seen some excerpts from the 1:41 in Florence and its unbelieveble, not because its so fast(ok also because of that) but the way he runs...like leaving the surface.

That IS talent; response to a stimulus/stress inflicted upon the body.

And he WAS a top Ethiopian junior. I have his book. I have no idea where you are getting YOUR information from, but it must be from Gebrselassie or Jos Hermens himself (though both of them contradict your own testimony in Denison's book).

First of all, you have no idea what Tergat's activity level was in his youth, so do not speculate about things with which you have no familiarity.

Had you placed a pedometer on Tergat (as some scientists did recently to some Kenyan youngsters in comparing them to Danish children) you would UNDOUBTEDLY have found that Tergat's aerobic activity level, whether or not it was running (he said he did not run to school; that says nothing about his daily activity such as playing with other kids) is likely ENORMOUSLY greater than that of a similar American teenager.

We have been through this before.

Further, in every way and at every major track championship and at every single track distance at which the two raced, Gebrselassie DOMINATED Tergat.

Here are their respective PB's:

400:

Gebrselassie, 49.97 (Jos Hermens)

Tergat, unknown

800:

Gebrselassie, 1:46

Tergat, unknown

1500:

Gebrselassie, 3:31.76

Tergat, 3:45 (never raced it seriously, as Toby Tanser noted, he ran his last 1500 in an X-C race in 3:46 once)

3000:

Gebrselassie, 7:25.09

Tergat, 7:28.70

5,000:

Gebrselassie, 12:39.36

Tergat, 12:49.87

10,000:

Gebrselassie, 26:22.75

Tergat, 26:27.85

Tergat has runs TENS OF THOUSANDS OF MILES and has never beaten Gebrselassie on the track.

In TWENTY-ONE career matchups, road, track, and cross-country, Geb is undefeated on the track, 3-1 on road (Tergat won London) and 1-2 on cross-country.

As for PR's, Gebrselassie's on time-oriented attempt at the half-marathon on a FAST course was 59:40. Tergat's official WR (having run MANY 13.1 mile races) is 59:17. If you doubt he can take it down I would be surprised.

Geb has also run just one marathon. Tergat has done a lot since 2001 (I cannot recall the exact number, but I believe it is 6-7)

Absurd! By what arbitrary nonsense are you fabricating this garbage?

Only a small piece of talent involves what you popped from your mother's womb with. Much more of this involves lifetime aerobic base, ability to respond to training, mental attributes allowing endurance of difficult training and competition situations, ability to tolerate pain, and other characteristics not measured in any physiological evaluation center ANYWHERE.

When you can come up with something resembling a cogent explanation of this statement, let us know, because at this moment it appears only so much horse manure.

Mr.Renato Canova himself said that he's sure that Nicholas Kemboi can run very close to 26mins if he does the right training for some years, stays focused, he said similar things about Shaheen.

However, is there a reason to act like a 5-year old?

You must be a happy man if you dont have any other problems to worry about.

Ne-now wrote:

However, is there a reason to act like a 5-year old?

You must be a happy man if you dont have any other problems to worry about.

How does this have anything to do with the discussion at hand?

I am counteracting some points you made which I know to be ridiculous and the best you can reply with are grammar school putdowns?

What do you think this says about the validity of your argument?

Racer1 wrote:

There are MANY MORE COMPETITIVE RUNNERS IN AMERICA THAN IN KENYA.

It's amazing you type so voluminously and yet understand so very little.

First you say there are more competitive runners in america, then you list so many ways that the Kenyans are MORE COMPETITIVE.

Jogging around the track a few times and eating tootsie roll pops is not competitive, no matter how many americans do this.

You need to open your mind, stop typing so much and try to understand what you read.

Ne-now wrote:

and for the physical argument:

Paul Tergat comes from a rich family, lived 400m next to his school and the only activity he did till he was 18-19 was to play basketball ocassional with his friends.

I walked 2,5km everyday to school and back and then always did atleast 2h of serious sport-activity in a club in the afternoon since i was 12 and well i haven't run 2:04 yet.

Jim Ryun smoked cigarettes and didn't run until 8th grade. I ran in the woods behind our house when I was 5 and always ran 2 miles to school and back home.

So this proves it conclusively.

Jim Ryun was from Kenya.

observer of taking up space wrote:

It's amazing you type so voluminously and yet understand so very little.

It's funny; you've reversed the roles here.

First you say there are more competitive runners in america, then you list so many ways that the Kenyans are MORE COMPETITIVE.

Number of competitors does not equal the extent to which the Kenyans are competitive. Have you caught on that it is you who needs to read what is written.

Jogging around the track a few times and eating tootsie roll pops is not competitive, no matter how many americans do this.

There really is not much I can say to this, because I have no idea what you are trying to say.

You need to open your mind, stop typing so much and try to understand what you read.

You first.

Jim Ryun wasnt from Kenya but he's a good example how important good biomechanics are, as someone posted:he had legs like a horse!

Just watch some of the clips of his races that are available on the net, huge and powerful stride, minimal contact with the surface, knees almost above the chest with every stride.Mr.Racer, your response was a bit harsh for a topic that doesnt start with "ya mama", in my opinion.

It seems that you are Gebres wife...yes Gebre has beaten Tergat regular on the track but his track times are not that much better than Tergats in the 5 and 10k and slower in half and full-marathon, of course he has still enough time to correct this,+ Tergat was 5-times WXC Champion..so i would say there are playing in the same league.

About Tergats acitivty as a kid..i've just seen several interviews with Mr.Tergat where he talked about his career and his life, thats it, no i haven't talked to his neighbours or his uncles or his friends or the guy who owns the grocery-shop round the corner of Tergats home but maybe you have and can give us more information...

I said Gebre was not THE top ethiopian junior and not that he wasnt one of them.