2:19 on 70-80 miles per week.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Phil will now rest up a week and then we start to better up his maxVO2 and LT - intervals.

i bet Phil won't listen to you anymore

Most people would agree Sage, but the JS guy won't listen. Anyone wanting to run a fast competitive marathon should read Inside a Marathon about Scott Fauble and NAZ Elite. There actually are workouts similar to what JS prescribes but there are a lot of others that he leaves out (arguably the more important ones). It seems like Phil can run around 2:19 on 70 MPW , not sure about 60 MPW but he would have had a better chance if some of the longer more conventional workouts were included.

Hakuna Matata wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Phil will now rest up a week and then we start to better up his maxVO2 and LT - intervals.

i bet Phil won't listen to you anymore

No one should! He ran his mouth off.He said his system would turn him into champion but all it did was help him run his worst time.Kids, it take miles to be a champion there are no shortcuts. You will only have limited success. This is the reason why all the B level Kenyans left his program. You only going to have success for a limited time massive amounts of workouts, and you will eventually fall on your face.

He actually already did run many workouts that, according to you, were of the level of a 2:16 runner. Shouldn't you do workouts on your actual level, rather than the desired level?

J's? wrote:

STFU, you should be ashamed of yourself!! You ruined Phil's race. You need miles, regardless of the distance to improve. A lot of fast sessions will only lead you to limited results. Phil should have done one session a week and concentrated on his mileage. it is obvious by looking at the thread that Phil had burnt out in October.

I think there were about half a dozen people on this thread that called that out, back in October.

I would be very concerned at how JS is looking at this. The system clearly did not work over the marathon distance, so for JS to say let's do even faster workouts..... I don't think that's in Phil's best interest. Prefontaine already mentioned probably the biggest flaw in this training, Sage has mentioned various times that there are major components missing from this type of training. IMO a good coach learns from mistakes, adapts and improves in areas that need improvement, for the best of the athelete. There are large sets of data available that clearly show what type of training works for endurance events. That's what need to be looked at and added to the training.

There are no shortcuts. Phil did what he could with the time he had available, but the times are a result of the work put in. It looks like he worked really hard and was very disciplined, but it was not the right training for the event he ran.

In any case, best of luck in your next race Phil, whichever that's going to be.

Cheers,

Where is J's reply to all this? Lol!!

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

There is one thing for sure! :) You will disappear from this thread if Phil breaks 2:19, lol ))))

Now that Phil ran what he did and you are TOTALLY proven as a JOKE, will you?

Hakuna Matata wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Phil will now rest up a week and then we start to better up his maxVO2 and LT - intervals.

i bet Phil won't listen to you anymore

Let me get this straight; so you coached Phil from a 2:23 pr to 2:34 Marathon? Isn't it supposed to be the other way? What's his next Marathon sub 3?

Of course we will stick to his present shape out from what his workouts gives me information . At the moment he runs 20 x 400m at 68-69 sec with around 60 sec rest and therefore his thresholds should stay with about 74-75 sec/ 400m . When I talk about speeding up his workouts it will of course come when I see he`s ready for it. When he will run 20 x 400m at 66-67 sec and around 60 sec rest he will also be ready to run thresholds at 72-73 sec/ 400m and then 5:06 pace ( 3:10 per km ) will be easy for him to handle at the marathon and a sub 2:19 will be a piece of a cake.

His stamina and metabolic capacity just have to hold on for 2 hours and 19 min , nothing more and nothing less. To run

fast at all distances from 800m- marathon is mainly a pace thing.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Vo2 Maxxxed Ouuuut! wrote:

Burn out. Not enough base miles in the last 16 weeks, too many workouts. Getting slower for CIM?

This isn`t a phase system with what you call base miles , only enough mileage to back up the workouts.I think you understand your body can`t always respond at normal strength when you don`t get enough sleep? I`m not coaching robots! )))

So only enough miles to do the (your) workouts, but not enough miles to do the right workouts to run a great marathon. Got it.

Hope Phil dusts himself off from one bad race and puts together a great 2020.

So I guess this breaks your streak of every single runner whom you’ve coached improving. What does your guaranty give Phil?

Not defending JS but do you judge a marathoner or a coach by just one race? Hopefully Bekele is not your GOAT.

Waiting for Phil to comment on the race. From the splits he faded REALLY badly and I doubt training is the reason.

My worst positive split was caused by a combination of hilly course and bad stomach. I had went out fast in the past but never faded like that (relatively speaking), or maybe I did not went out fast enough....

Smoove wrote:

So I guess this breaks your streak of every single runner whom you’ve coached improving. What does your guaranty give Phil?

Phil PR'ed on the 10 mile along the way

BZ wrote:

Smoove wrote:

So I guess this breaks your streak of every single runner whom you’ve coached improving. What does your guaranty give Phil?

Phil PR'ed on the 10 mile along the way

Was that the goal of the training/thread or was it to pr at the marathon?

hypnotichen wrote:

Not defending JS but do you judge a marathoner or a coach by just one race? Hopefully Bekele is not your GOAT.

Waiting for Phil to comment on the race. From the splits he faded REALLY badly and I doubt training is the reason.

My worst positive split was caused by a combination of hilly course and bad stomach. I had went out fast in the past but never faded like that (relatively speaking), or maybe I did not went out fast enough....

Not everything comes down to training and nothing else. I think he went out too hard. When I saw his 5 km split I thought it was unlikely he'd get his time and was more sure of it when I saw the 10 km split, though not knowing the course I wasn't absolutely sure. By the time I saw the halfway split I was sure he was in trouble. Even though he was still on pace at halfway he was slowing and I thought it was going to get ugly. Barry Magee once told me that every second you run in the first half of a race that's too fast will cost you two seconds in the second half.

Phil, sorry it went badly. I've been there in marathons. You have my sympathy.

So if you improve Phil's 400m times about two seconds, he will be able to run 5:06 pace for the marathon, which is about a minute faster a mile than he ran today?

And for the guy who said we can't judge his training...which guy do you know of that runs around 50 miles a week but has run under 2:19? Even my middle school kids understand the way to improve your next race isn't to look for seconds here and there during the actual race, it's getting it done during training. Races are an extension of your training and I don't think anyone without less than a basic understanding of marathon training expected Phil to run the Standard.

JS, you say that your training is based off Canova and Daniels. Have you ever emailed the "founding fathers" of your training to see what they think about it? I'd love to see their reply. I've emailed both of them in the past and they got back to me, so I'm sure they'd do the same for you.

For you to talk about Phil running 5:06 pace for the marathon is insane. I'll gladly PayPal/Venmo a moderator $2,000 and if Phil runs under 5:10 pace on a legal course, you and him get $1,000 each. But you have to put in $1,000 of your own money and Phil has to get it done in two years. You up for it?

Unfortunately life isn’t a fairly tail. Sometimes things go way worse than you think possible. I do want to take a day or two to think about my overall thoughts on the last 5 months but I just wanted to give a quick recap.

I feel like I’m a pretty smart runner, but I think it’s clear I got a little excited the first 10k. It was pretty magical to be part of a pack like that and I should have let it go at the start. I intentionally slowed down after that point hoping I could regroup a bit and settle more into 5:20-5:25. I hit the half in 1:10:01 on my watch and was pretty happy with that. I knew an otq was definitely not happening, but I was feeling solid and optimistic I had a 1:12-1:13 in me to snag a Pr.

I stopped looking at splits at that point and just tried to focus on my rhythm and catching guys that were now quickly falling off the 1:09 pack. Unfortunately things went down hill extremely quick at about 16ish miles...10 miles is a long way to think about your failure. At 18 miles my lower back, hips, and upper quads started to go. By 20 they were completely locked up and I was doing everything I could to not walk. At 24 I had to walk about 200ft because the cramps were so intense. I honestly didn’t think I’d be able to start jogging again. I may be slow, but I’m no quitter. I was finishing if it took me an hr to cover those 2 miles. Fortunately I was able to start shuffling again and limp in to 2:33.

Admittedly I though 2:25ish was as slow as I’d run if things went bad. I felt I had about a 1% shot at 2:18:59, 3% shot at sub 2:20, and probably a 60-70% shot at a Pr. My stomach was good the whole way, I drank at every water stop, took 4 gu’s. I think fueling was solid. I’m sure I would have felt different if the race went better, but the hills really got me. I do think they contributed to my muscle issues, but no way to know for sure.

I’m not mad at J.S. I appreciate what he has done for me. Overall this has been a fantastic year of running for me. 2 years ago I was an 18:05 5k runner and nearly 200lbs. My wife snagged a Pr! I talked to a guy from Miami at the finish who has been following the thread. I’m sorry I don’t remember your name, but nice job grinding out there! Good day.

!!!! wrote:

2:33:46

Congrats!

3rd wrote:

Third fastest out of 7 marathons, pretty good really!

Third fastest all time and after a considerable gap in between, indeed quite impressive!

Plus going out at 2:17 pace and being right on 2:20 pace at half way shows Phil will be running much faster.

Bummer I didn't get the 5 billion dollars but that's okay. There's always next time.

I was going to split it with Phil and JS, buy a new house, and donate the rest to the Green New Deal.

Phil, you put yourself out there and you were right in the running. Congratulations to you!

Thanks for the update Phil. Sorry to hear it was a bad day at the office. Do enjoy your rest and recovery and good luck going forward!

Cheers,