There is no “genetic superiority” when it comes to distance running. Literally everyone sub 2:09 is just doping.

Will the line be drawn? · 2019-07-18T12:01:17-04:00

Is anyone else sick of hearing how these East Africans are just genetically superior? They are in area where getting drugs is way easier than other parts of the world and in areas where drug testing isn’t even a thing. It’s awfully funny people think these guys are just better athletes. The only thing they are doing that Americans aren’t is getting away with doping. These guys debuting at times faster than the world record times ten years ago makes zero sense, humans didn’t all of a sudden evolve to be faster in the last 10-20 years. The entire area needs banned from participating in the Olympics until they get good testing.

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3 years ago 01/13/2023 5:02am EST

re: slowwer

slowwer wrote:
Aragon wrote:
Out of curiosity, what would you consider Kipchoge Keino's most brilliant personal best time which shows perhaps the limits (or almost the limits) of his potential capabilities and how would it compare vs. his competitors in your opinion?
I don't know if you have followed this madness, but here are some of Armstronglivs' arguments in this issue:
- Clarke faster than Keino because 13:16 faster 13:24 (nothing more needed)
- Vasala faster Keino because 72 of win (nothing more needed)
- Clarkes's losses against Keino at the big occasions at 5000m(3 Miles) four times in a row are unimportant as well as Keino's much better PBs in various other distances
- Vasala's weaker PB in the 1500 than Keino's is unimportant
- the fact that with his view of "faster" out of two runners very often both are "faster" than the other he didn't understand at all
Keino maybe is the most versatile runner ever. He was the 3rd fastest in history in the 10000m and has an 800m PB faster than the current 1500m Olympic champ. In between he was Olympic champ and has set world records. An Olympic title in the steeple after just a few tries adds strongly. His strongest distance? No idea. His 7:39.6 in the 3000m was extremely strong.

If you understood English better you would realise that you are arguing Keino's versatility, which is undeniable, but that is not the same as saying no one was faster. As you are apparently unable to read a stopwatch or observe who crosses the line first, there were a number of runners who were faster than he was by both counts - even if they weren't as versatile, consistent, or enduring.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 5:07am EST

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
slowwer wrote:
It's 1.24 seconds.
No. Spend less time exercising to Keino videos and more time working on your maths, logic, and life skills.
Mike Boit 1:43.57
Sebastian Coe 1:41.73
--------------------1.84

When you live in a fantasy world, as he does, factual veracity is not to be expected.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 8:49am EST

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
slowwer wrote:
It's 1.24 seconds.
No. Spend less time exercising to Keino videos and more time working on your maths, logic, and life skills.
Mike Boit 1:43.57
Sebastian Coe 1:41.73
--------------------1.84

The no. of times the most easy things have to be explained to you (and the other non-checker) is just astonishing.

Btw., the correct value is 0.55, so half a second. But what's the point at all with this number?

3 years ago 01/13/2023 8:55am EST

re: Armstronglivs

So you stay with your point?

-Vasala was faster than Keino (?)

-Clarke was faster than Keino (?)

-Keino was not faster than Clarke (?)

Yes or no?

Rarely has anyone exposed themselves more publicly.

The level of your argumentation in this issue also reflects your complete contradiction in your point of view on doping.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 8:57am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
slowwer wrote:
I don't know if you have followed this madness, but here are some of Armstronglivs' arguments in this issue:
- Clarke faster than Keino because 13:16 faster 13:24 (nothing more needed)
- Vasala faster Keino because 72 of win (nothing more needed)
- Clarkes's losses against Keino at the big occasions at 5000m(3 Miles) four times in a row are unimportant as well as Keino's much better PBs in various other distances
- Vasala's weaker PB in the 1500 than Keino's is unimportant
- the fact that with his view of "faster" out of two runners very often both are "faster" than the other he didn't understand at all
Keino maybe is the most versatile runner ever. He was the 3rd fastest in history in the 10000m and has an 800m PB faster than the current 1500m Olympic champ. In between he was Olympic champ and has set world records. An Olympic title in the steeple after just a few tries adds strongly. His strongest distance? No idea. His 7:39.6 in the 3000m was extremely strong.
If you understood English better you would realise that you are arguing Keino's versatility, which is undeniable, but that is not the same as saying no one was faster. As you are apparently unable to read a stopwatch or observe who crosses the line first, there were a number of runners who were faster than he was by both counts - even if they weren't as versatile, consistent, or enduring.

My English is good enough, I'm sure.

If Clarke was faster than Keino, than Keino was (much) faster than Clarke.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 9:50am EST

re: slowwer

An interesting summation of long distance races in the summer of 77 which malmo has posted in letsrun a while ago.

22 Kenyan victories from five different athletes. Probably not complete.

What will be the reaction on this:

- long distance doesn't count (for sure Kenya has had also very good middle distance runners in all of the period 1964- 1979)

- pointing on the races they have not won (especially the ones featuring some special runner)

- mentioning a race from 1982

What will not come:

the agreeing to the fact that Kenyans have had enormous success ("success" for them) in this period

5/13 PAC 10 10000m
1. 28:13 Kimobwa
2. Rono
3.

5/14 PAC 10 5000m
1. 13:35 Kimobwa
2. Kimeto

5/18 London 5000m
1. 13:34 Nyambui
2. 13:35 Hermens
3. 13:40 Black
4. 13:40 Rono

6/3 NCAA 10000m
1. 28:10 Kimobwa
2. 28:22 Virgin

6/4 NCAA 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimeto
2. 13:38 Kimobwa

6/15 Kuopio 3000m
2. 8:04 Kimobwa

6/21 Kaarleila 10000m
1. 28:50 Kimobwa

6/24 Keuruu 3000m
1. Kimeto
5. Kimobwa

6/25 London 3000m
1. 7:45 Quax
2. 7:47 Rose

6/28 Haparanda 3000m
1. 8:13 Kimobwa

6/29 Helsinki 5000m
1. 13:19 Quax
2. 13:23 Stewart
3. 13:23 Fava
4. 13:23 Zarcone
5. 13:24 Hermens
6. 13:32 Kimeto
7. 13:36 Ngeno
8. 13:36 Puttemans

6/30 Helsinki 10000m
1. 27:30 WR Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Musyoki
3. 27:42 Fava
4. 27:43 Simmons

7/2 Milan 5000m
1. 13:21 Kimobwa
2. 13:25 Zarcone
3. 13:28 Fava

7/3 Raahe 5000m
1. 13:42 Kimeto
2. 13:53 Kimobwa

7/4 Stockholm 10000m
1. 27:37 Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Hermens
3. 27:42 Uhlemann
4. 27:59 Musyoki

7/5 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:12 WR Quax
2. 13:13 Fleschen
3. 13:14 Weight

7/5 Turku 5000m
1. 13:21 Fava
2 13:28 Ngeno
3. 13:32 Kimobwa

7/6 Nykoping 5000m
1. 13:43 Kimobwa

7/8 Lausanne 5000m
1. 13:33 Quax
2. 13:33 Uhlmann

7/17 Vesanto 3000m
1. 8:02 Kimobwa

7/22 AAA London 10000m
1. 27:46 Foster
2. 28:19 Black
3. 28:36 Kimeto

7/23 AAA London 5000m
1. 13:33 Black
2. 13:34 Ford
3. 13:39 Kimeto
5. 13:45 Quax
8. 14:02 Treacy

7/26 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:23 Kimobwa
2. 13:27 Julian Goater
3. 13:33 Ian Stewart
4. 13:34 Ngeno

7/28 Karlskrona 5000m
1. Dan Glans
2. 13:28 Kimobwa

7/30 Siena 5000m
2. 13:56 Kimobwa

7/30 Gateshead 5000m
1. 13:20 Yifter
2. 13:25 Ovett
6. 13:36 Kimeto

8/3 Via Reggio 3000m
1. 7:43 Tura ETH
2. 7:46 Kimeto

8/3 Lausanne 10000m
1. 27:57 Kimobwa
2. 28:28 Ngeno

8/7 Zolfingen 3000m
1. 8:00 Kimobwa

8/7 Pietarsaari 10000m
1. 28:00 Kimeto
3. 28:39 Viren

8/10 Karlstad 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimobwa

8/12 Tunis African WCup Trials 3000m Steeplechase
1. 8:26 Tura
2. 8:33 Rono

8/13 Tunis, Africa WCup Trials 5000m
1. 13:28 Yifter
3. 13:37 Rono

8/16 Lapeenranta 5000m
1. 13:33 Fava
2. 13:33 Ortis
3. 13:41 Viren
4. 13:46 Ngeno

8/16 Brussels 10000m
1. 28:26 Kimobwa
2. 28:36 Ryffel
3. 28:38 Grillaert
4. 28:44 McLeod
5. 28:56 Quax

8/21 Nice 3000m
1. 7:47 Ngeno
2. 7:47 Kimobwa
4. 7:50 Kimeto
5. 7:52 Rono

8/24 Zurich 5000m
1. 13:16 Liquori AR
2. 13:17 Quax
3. 13:18 Yifter
4. 13:21 Kimobwa
5. 13:22 Rono
6. 13:23 Boxberger
7. 13:23 Uhlemann
8. 13:23 Ryffel
9. 13:26 Shorter
10. 13:32 Ngeno
11. 13:40 Kimeto

8/26 Berlin 10000m
1. 27:58 Ngeno
2. 28:05 Quax
3. 28:05 Tibaduiza
4. 28:15 Kimobwa
6. 28:25 Kimeto

8/28 Rieti 5000m
1. 13:22 Rono

9/9 London 10000m
1. 27:36 Foster
2. 27:37 Rono
3. 27:37 Tebroke
4. 27:41 Quax
5. 27:43 Hermens
6. 27:43 Stewert
7 27:43 Ford
8. 27:55 Goater
11. 28:16 Kimobwa

9/11 Furth 3000m
1. 7:50 Khalifa
2. 7:51 Rono
3. 7:52 Zimmerman
4. 7:52 Addison
5. 7:54 Malley
6. 7:54 Kimeto
9. 7:57 Malinowski
10. 8:58 Quax

9/23 Wattenscheid 3000m
1. 7:41 Ovett
2. 7:41 Rono

3 years ago 01/13/2023 10:55am EST

re: slowwer

slowwer wrote:
So you stay with your point?
-Vasala was faster than Keino (?)
-Clarke was faster than Keino (?)
-Keino was not faster than Clarke (?)
Yes or no?
Rarely has anyone exposed themselves more publicly.
The level of your argumentation in this issue also reflects your complete contradiction in your point of view on doping.

The world record-holder is faster than those who don't hold the record. An athlete is also faster than the athlete he/she beats. The term "faster" can be applied in either sense. It means that there were athletes faster than Keino in terms of time - Clarke and Ryun - and who also were faster because they beat him - like Vasala. Keino beat Clarke in competition but Clarke's best times were faster than Keino's. It is therefore not possible to maintain as fact that "no one was faster than Keino in his era" - as you seek to do. It is immaterial to that point that Keino was sometimes also faster than those who had faster times than him or who had beaten him. Your claim is an absolute that allows for no exceptions that is also easily shown to be wrong. But to debate this with such as yourself, who cannot grasp this after a dozen pages, this is an exercise in idiocy - although it is part of your malady to not see this.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 11:01am EST

re: slowwer

slowwer wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
If you understood English better you would realise that you are arguing Keino's versatility, which is undeniable, but that is not the same as saying no one was faster. As you are apparently unable to read a stopwatch or observe who crosses the line first, there were a number of runners who were faster than he was by both counts - even if they weren't as versatile, consistent, or enduring.
My English is good enough, I'm sure.
If Clarke was faster than Keino, than Keino was (much) faster than Clarke.

Likewise, "if Clarke was taller than Keino then Keino was much taller than Clarke". English isn't your only problem. You are beyond rational discourse.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 11:03am EST

re: slowwer

slowwer wrote:
An interesting summation of long distance races in the summer of 77 which malmo has posted in letsrun a while ago.
22 Kenyan victories from five different athletes. Probably not complete.
What will be the reaction on this:
- long distance doesn't count (for sure Kenya has had also very good middle distance runners in all of the period 1964- 1979)
- pointing on the races they have not won (especially the ones featuring some special runner)
- mentioning a race from 1982
What will not come:
the agreeing to the fact that Kenyans have had enormous success ("success" for them) in this period
5/13 PAC 10 10000m
1. 28:13 Kimobwa
2. Rono
3.
5/14 PAC 10 5000m
1. 13:35 Kimobwa
2. Kimeto
5/18 London 5000m
1. 13:34 Nyambui
2. 13:35 Hermens
3. 13:40 Black
4. 13:40 Rono
6/3 NCAA 10000m
1. 28:10 Kimobwa
2. 28:22 Virgin
6/4 NCAA 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimeto
2. 13:38 Kimobwa
6/15 Kuopio 3000m
2. 8:04 Kimobwa
6/21 Kaarleila 10000m
1. 28:50 Kimobwa
6/24 Keuruu 3000m
1. Kimeto
5. Kimobwa
6/25 London 3000m
1. 7:45 Quax
2. 7:47 Rose
6/28 Haparanda 3000m
1. 8:13 Kimobwa
6/29 Helsinki 5000m
1. 13:19 Quax
2. 13:23 Stewart
3. 13:23 Fava
4. 13:23 Zarcone
5. 13:24 Hermens
6. 13:32 Kimeto
7. 13:36 Ngeno
8. 13:36 Puttemans
6/30 Helsinki 10000m
1. 27:30 WR Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Musyoki
3. 27:42 Fava
4. 27:43 Simmons
7/2 Milan 5000m
1. 13:21 Kimobwa
2. 13:25 Zarcone
3. 13:28 Fava
7/3 Raahe 5000m
1. 13:42 Kimeto
2. 13:53 Kimobwa
7/4 Stockholm 10000m
1. 27:37 Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Hermens
3. 27:42 Uhlemann
4. 27:59 Musyoki
7/5 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:12 WR Quax
2. 13:13 Fleschen
3. 13:14 Weight
7/5 Turku 5000m
1. 13:21 Fava
2 13:28 Ngeno
3. 13:32 Kimobwa
7/6 Nykoping 5000m
1. 13:43 Kimobwa
7/8 Lausanne 5000m
1. 13:33 Quax
2. 13:33 Uhlmann
7/17 Vesanto 3000m
1. 8:02 Kimobwa
7/22 AAA London 10000m
1. 27:46 Foster
2. 28:19 Black
3. 28:36 Kimeto
7/23 AAA London 5000m
1. 13:33 Black
2. 13:34 Ford
3. 13:39 Kimeto
5. 13:45 Quax
8. 14:02 Treacy
7/26 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:23 Kimobwa
2. 13:27 Julian Goater
3. 13:33 Ian Stewart
4. 13:34 Ngeno
7/28 Karlskrona 5000m
1. Dan Glans
2. 13:28 Kimobwa
7/30 Siena 5000m
2. 13:56 Kimobwa
7/30 Gateshead 5000m
1. 13:20 Yifter
2. 13:25 Ovett
6. 13:36 Kimeto
8/3 Via Reggio 3000m
1. 7:43 Tura ETH
2. 7:46 Kimeto
8/3 Lausanne 10000m
1. 27:57 Kimobwa
2. 28:28 Ngeno
8/7 Zolfingen 3000m
1. 8:00 Kimobwa
8/7 Pietarsaari 10000m
1. 28:00 Kimeto
3. 28:39 Viren
8/10 Karlstad 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimobwa
8/12 Tunis African WCup Trials 3000m Steeplechase
1. 8:26 Tura
2. 8:33 Rono
8/13 Tunis, Africa WCup Trials 5000m
1. 13:28 Yifter
3. 13:37 Rono
8/16 Lapeenranta 5000m
1. 13:33 Fava
2. 13:33 Ortis
3. 13:41 Viren
4. 13:46 Ngeno
8/16 Brussels 10000m
1. 28:26 Kimobwa
2. 28:36 Ryffel
3. 28:38 Grillaert
4. 28:44 McLeod
5. 28:56 Quax
8/21 Nice 3000m
1. 7:47 Ngeno
2. 7:47 Kimobwa
4. 7:50 Kimeto
5. 7:52 Rono
8/24 Zurich 5000m
1. 13:16 Liquori AR
2. 13:17 Quax
3. 13:18 Yifter
4. 13:21 Kimobwa
5. 13:22 Rono
6. 13:23 Boxberger
7. 13:23 Uhlemann
8. 13:23 Ryffel
9. 13:26 Shorter
10. 13:32 Ngeno
11. 13:40 Kimeto
8/26 Berlin 10000m
1. 27:58 Ngeno
2. 28:05 Quax
3. 28:05 Tibaduiza
4. 28:15 Kimobwa
6. 28:25 Kimeto
8/28 Rieti 5000m
1. 13:22 Rono
9/9 London 10000m
1. 27:36 Foster
2. 27:37 Rono
3. 27:37 Tebroke
4. 27:41 Quax
5. 27:43 Hermens
6. 27:43 Stewert
7 27:43 Ford
8. 27:55 Goater
11. 28:16 Kimobwa
9/11 Furth 3000m
1. 7:50 Khalifa
2. 7:51 Rono
3. 7:52 Zimmerman
4. 7:52 Addison
5. 7:54 Malley
6. 7:54 Kimeto
9. 7:57 Malinowski
10. 8:58 Quax
9/23 Wattenscheid 3000m
1. 7:41 Ovett
2. 7:41 Rono

Your deluded fanaticism is certifiable.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 11:21am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
slowwer wrote:
My English is good enough, I'm sure.
If Clarke was faster than Keino, than Keino was (much) faster than Clarke.
Likewise, "if Clarke was taller than Keino then Keino was much taller than Clarke". English isn't your only problem. You are beyond rational discourse.

My statement is 100% correct: if Clarke was faster than Keino (as you claimed), than Keino was (for sure much) faster than Clarke.

The only question which remains: was Clarke faster than Keino? If YES, then Keino was faster than Clarke.

"taller than" is transitive, your example completely sucks. Like almost everything else you write.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 11:25am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
slowwer wrote:
An interesting summation of long distance races in the summer of 77 which malmo has posted in letsrun a while ago.
22 Kenyan victories from five different athletes. Probably not complete.
What will be the reaction on this:
- long distance doesn't count (for sure Kenya has had also very good middle distance runners in all of the period 1964- 1979)
- pointing on the races they have not won (especially the ones featuring some special runner)
- mentioning a race from 1982
What will not come:
the agreeing to the fact that Kenyans have had enormous success ("success" for them) in this period
5/13 PAC 10 10000m
1. 28:13 Kimobwa
2. Rono
3.
5/14 PAC 10 5000m
1. 13:35 Kimobwa
2. Kimeto
5/18 London 5000m
1. 13:34 Nyambui
2. 13:35 Hermens
3. 13:40 Black
4. 13:40 Rono
6/3 NCAA 10000m
1. 28:10 Kimobwa
2. 28:22 Virgin
6/4 NCAA 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimeto
2. 13:38 Kimobwa
6/15 Kuopio 3000m
2. 8:04 Kimobwa
6/21 Kaarleila 10000m
1. 28:50 Kimobwa
6/24 Keuruu 3000m
1. Kimeto
5. Kimobwa
6/25 London 3000m
1. 7:45 Quax
2. 7:47 Rose
6/28 Haparanda 3000m
1. 8:13 Kimobwa
6/29 Helsinki 5000m
1. 13:19 Quax
2. 13:23 Stewart
3. 13:23 Fava
4. 13:23 Zarcone
5. 13:24 Hermens
6. 13:32 Kimeto
7. 13:36 Ngeno
8. 13:36 Puttemans
6/30 Helsinki 10000m
1. 27:30 WR Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Musyoki
3. 27:42 Fava
4. 27:43 Simmons
7/2 Milan 5000m
1. 13:21 Kimobwa
2. 13:25 Zarcone
3. 13:28 Fava
7/3 Raahe 5000m
1. 13:42 Kimeto
2. 13:53 Kimobwa
7/4 Stockholm 10000m
1. 27:37 Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Hermens
3. 27:42 Uhlemann
4. 27:59 Musyoki
7/5 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:12 WR Quax
2. 13:13 Fleschen
3. 13:14 Weight
7/5 Turku 5000m
1. 13:21 Fava
2 13:28 Ngeno
3. 13:32 Kimobwa
7/6 Nykoping 5000m
1. 13:43 Kimobwa
7/8 Lausanne 5000m
1. 13:33 Quax
2. 13:33 Uhlmann
7/17 Vesanto 3000m
1. 8:02 Kimobwa
7/22 AAA London 10000m
1. 27:46 Foster
2. 28:19 Black
3. 28:36 Kimeto
7/23 AAA London 5000m
1. 13:33 Black
2. 13:34 Ford
3. 13:39 Kimeto
5. 13:45 Quax
8. 14:02 Treacy
7/26 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:23 Kimobwa
2. 13:27 Julian Goater
3. 13:33 Ian Stewart
4. 13:34 Ngeno
7/28 Karlskrona 5000m
1. Dan Glans
2. 13:28 Kimobwa
7/30 Siena 5000m
2. 13:56 Kimobwa
7/30 Gateshead 5000m
1. 13:20 Yifter
2. 13:25 Ovett
6. 13:36 Kimeto
8/3 Via Reggio 3000m
1. 7:43 Tura ETH
2. 7:46 Kimeto
8/3 Lausanne 10000m
1. 27:57 Kimobwa
2. 28:28 Ngeno
8/7 Zolfingen 3000m
1. 8:00 Kimobwa
8/7 Pietarsaari 10000m
1. 28:00 Kimeto
3. 28:39 Viren
8/10 Karlstad 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimobwa
8/12 Tunis African WCup Trials 3000m Steeplechase
1. 8:26 Tura
2. 8:33 Rono
8/13 Tunis, Africa WCup Trials 5000m
1. 13:28 Yifter
3. 13:37 Rono
8/16 Lapeenranta 5000m
1. 13:33 Fava
2. 13:33 Ortis
3. 13:41 Viren
4. 13:46 Ngeno
8/16 Brussels 10000m
1. 28:26 Kimobwa
2. 28:36 Ryffel
3. 28:38 Grillaert
4. 28:44 McLeod
5. 28:56 Quax
8/21 Nice 3000m
1. 7:47 Ngeno
2. 7:47 Kimobwa
4. 7:50 Kimeto
5. 7:52 Rono
8/24 Zurich 5000m
1. 13:16 Liquori AR
2. 13:17 Quax
3. 13:18 Yifter
4. 13:21 Kimobwa
5. 13:22 Rono
6. 13:23 Boxberger
7. 13:23 Uhlemann
8. 13:23 Ryffel
9. 13:26 Shorter
10. 13:32 Ngeno
11. 13:40 Kimeto
8/26 Berlin 10000m
1. 27:58 Ngeno
2. 28:05 Quax
3. 28:05 Tibaduiza
4. 28:15 Kimobwa
6. 28:25 Kimeto
8/28 Rieti 5000m
1. 13:22 Rono
9/9 London 10000m
1. 27:36 Foster
2. 27:37 Rono
3. 27:37 Tebroke
4. 27:41 Quax
5. 27:43 Hermens
6. 27:43 Stewert
7 27:43 Ford
8. 27:55 Goater
11. 28:16 Kimobwa
9/11 Furth 3000m
1. 7:50 Khalifa
2. 7:51 Rono
3. 7:52 Zimmerman
4. 7:52 Addison
5. 7:54 Malley
6. 7:54 Kimeto
9. 7:57 Malinowski
10. 8:58 Quax
9/23 Wattenscheid 3000m
1. 7:41 Ovett
2. 7:41 Rono
Your deluded fanaticism is certifiable.

Kenya was the most successful track distance running nation in the period 1964 - 1979.

The question is: what's the reason for this? can it be explained by doping? (which always means the rest doesn't dope or doesn't do it so successful).

3 years ago 01/13/2023 12:43pm EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
slowwer wrote:
An interesting summation of long distance races in the summer of 77 which malmo has posted in letsrun a while ago.
22 Kenyan victories from five different athletes. Probably not complete.
What will be the reaction on this:
- long distance doesn't count (for sure Kenya has had also very good middle distance runners in all of the period 1964- 1979)
- pointing on the races they have not won (especially the ones featuring some special runner)
- mentioning a race from 1982
What will not come:
the agreeing to the fact that Kenyans have had enormous success ("success" for them) in this period
5/13 PAC 10 10000m
1. 28:13 Kimobwa
2. Rono
3.
5/14 PAC 10 5000m
1. 13:35 Kimobwa
2. Kimeto
5/18 London 5000m
1. 13:34 Nyambui
2. 13:35 Hermens
3. 13:40 Black
4. 13:40 Rono
6/3 NCAA 10000m
1. 28:10 Kimobwa
2. 28:22 Virgin
6/4 NCAA 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimeto
2. 13:38 Kimobwa
6/15 Kuopio 3000m
2. 8:04 Kimobwa
6/21 Kaarleila 10000m
1. 28:50 Kimobwa
6/24 Keuruu 3000m
1. Kimeto
5. Kimobwa
6/25 London 3000m
1. 7:45 Quax
2. 7:47 Rose
6/28 Haparanda 3000m
1. 8:13 Kimobwa
6/29 Helsinki 5000m
1. 13:19 Quax
2. 13:23 Stewart
3. 13:23 Fava
4. 13:23 Zarcone
5. 13:24 Hermens
6. 13:32 Kimeto
7. 13:36 Ngeno
8. 13:36 Puttemans
6/30 Helsinki 10000m
1. 27:30 WR Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Musyoki
3. 27:42 Fava
4. 27:43 Simmons
7/2 Milan 5000m
1. 13:21 Kimobwa
2. 13:25 Zarcone
3. 13:28 Fava
7/3 Raahe 5000m
1. 13:42 Kimeto
2. 13:53 Kimobwa
7/4 Stockholm 10000m
1. 27:37 Kimobwa
2. 27:41 Hermens
3. 27:42 Uhlemann
4. 27:59 Musyoki
7/5 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:12 WR Quax
2. 13:13 Fleschen
3. 13:14 Weight
7/5 Turku 5000m
1. 13:21 Fava
2 13:28 Ngeno
3. 13:32 Kimobwa
7/6 Nykoping 5000m
1. 13:43 Kimobwa
7/8 Lausanne 5000m
1. 13:33 Quax
2. 13:33 Uhlmann
7/17 Vesanto 3000m
1. 8:02 Kimobwa
7/22 AAA London 10000m
1. 27:46 Foster
2. 28:19 Black
3. 28:36 Kimeto
7/23 AAA London 5000m
1. 13:33 Black
2. 13:34 Ford
3. 13:39 Kimeto
5. 13:45 Quax
8. 14:02 Treacy
7/26 Stockholm 5000m
1. 13:23 Kimobwa
2. 13:27 Julian Goater
3. 13:33 Ian Stewart
4. 13:34 Ngeno
7/28 Karlskrona 5000m
1. Dan Glans
2. 13:28 Kimobwa
7/30 Siena 5000m
2. 13:56 Kimobwa
7/30 Gateshead 5000m
1. 13:20 Yifter
2. 13:25 Ovett
6. 13:36 Kimeto
8/3 Via Reggio 3000m
1. 7:43 Tura ETH
2. 7:46 Kimeto
8/3 Lausanne 10000m
1. 27:57 Kimobwa
2. 28:28 Ngeno
8/7 Zolfingen 3000m
1. 8:00 Kimobwa
8/7 Pietarsaari 10000m
1. 28:00 Kimeto
3. 28:39 Viren
8/10 Karlstad 5000m
1. 13:38 Kimobwa
8/12 Tunis African WCup Trials 3000m Steeplechase
1. 8:26 Tura
2. 8:33 Rono
8/13 Tunis, Africa WCup Trials 5000m
1. 13:28 Yifter
3. 13:37 Rono
8/16 Lapeenranta 5000m
1. 13:33 Fava
2. 13:33 Ortis
3. 13:41 Viren
4. 13:46 Ngeno
8/16 Brussels 10000m
1. 28:26 Kimobwa
2. 28:36 Ryffel
3. 28:38 Grillaert
4. 28:44 McLeod
5. 28:56 Quax
8/21 Nice 3000m
1. 7:47 Ngeno
2. 7:47 Kimobwa
4. 7:50 Kimeto
5. 7:52 Rono
8/24 Zurich 5000m
1. 13:16 Liquori AR
2. 13:17 Quax
3. 13:18 Yifter
4. 13:21 Kimobwa
5. 13:22 Rono
6. 13:23 Boxberger
7. 13:23 Uhlemann
8. 13:23 Ryffel
9. 13:26 Shorter
10. 13:32 Ngeno
11. 13:40 Kimeto
8/26 Berlin 10000m
1. 27:58 Ngeno
2. 28:05 Quax
3. 28:05 Tibaduiza
4. 28:15 Kimobwa
6. 28:25 Kimeto
8/28 Rieti 5000m
1. 13:22 Rono
9/9 London 10000m
1. 27:36 Foster
2. 27:37 Rono
3. 27:37 Tebroke
4. 27:41 Quax
5. 27:43 Hermens
6. 27:43 Stewert
7 27:43 Ford
8. 27:55 Goater
11. 28:16 Kimobwa
9/11 Furth 3000m
1. 7:50 Khalifa
2. 7:51 Rono
3. 7:52 Zimmerman
4. 7:52 Addison
5. 7:54 Malley
6. 7:54 Kimeto
9. 7:57 Malinowski
10. 8:58 Quax
9/23 Wattenscheid 3000m
1. 7:41 Ovett
2. 7:41 Rono
Your deluded fanaticism is certifiable.

It seems you don't like the fact that five different Kenyans have won (at least) 22 long distance races in Europe and the USA in the summer of 77? But we can't change it.

In the middle distances, Kenya didn't had a very good year, but at least Mike Boit has won 30+ races:

15/01/77 Los Angeles (i) 2:08.6 1000y (1:52.8 880y) (3-Kipkurgat 2:10.7)

21/01 Daly City (i) 2 4:02.8 Mile (Cummings 4:02.0; 3-Scott 4:06.0; 5-Kipkurgat 4:12.2))

29/01 Portland (i) 2:23.9 1000m

04/02 Inglewood (i) 2:08.0 1000y (Kipkurgat 2:09.5)

11/02 Toronto (i) 2:08.5 1000y (Dyce 2:09.3)

18/02 San Diego (i) 2:05.5 1000y (1:50.6 880y) (3-Kipkurgat 2:06.4; 5-Omwansa 2:12.0)

25/02 New York (i) 2:06.9 1000y (1:50.6 880y) (Dyce 2:07.6) AAU

03/03 Toronto (i) 3 4:03.0 Mile (Bayi 4:00.6; Nyambui 4:00.9; 4- Dyce 4:04.4)

19/03 Stanford 1:46.1 800m (Robinson 1:47.5)

09/04 A Albuquerque 4:04.2 1 Mile (Kipkurgat 4:06.2)

24/04 Walnut 1:47.2 800m MSR (Robinson 1:51.1)

07/05 Eugene 1:45.9 800m

13/05 Kingston 1:44.7 800m (McLean 1:45.2; Newman 1:45.3;
Robinson 1:45.9)N.Manley T.M.

30/05 Cerritos 1:45.7 800m (Newman 1:46.0; Robinson 1:46.1)

19/06 Bydgoczsz 3:37.6 1500m (5-Malinowski 3:40.8) Ku

22/06 Köln 1:44.4 800m (Enyeart 1:44.8; Wulbeck 1:45.5;
5-Walker 1:46.2; 7-Lemashon 1:47.4; 8-Kipkurgat 1:48.1)

26/06 Crystal Palace 1B 1:45.68 800m (Lemashon 1:47.1; Belger 1:48.1)
Debenhams Jubilee

28/06 Oslo 1 1:45.9 800m (Belger 1:46.6; Kipkurgat 1:47.3;
Lemashon 1:48.2)

29/06 Helsinki 1 1:44.6 800m (Newman 1:45.2; McLean 1:45.2;
Savic 1:45.5; Enyeart 1:45.5) WG

01/07 Düsseldorf 1:44.9 800m (Wulbeck 1:45.6; Kipkurgat 1:47.6;
7-Omwansa 1:48.8)

03/07 Milano 3:39.9 1500m (Lacy 3:44.2)

05/07 Turku 1:45.13 800m (McLean 1:46.0; 4-Paunonen 1:49.2)
Nurmi Games

06/07 Koblenz 1:45.14 800m (Enyeart 1:48.1; Kipkurgat 1:48.2)
Cinder track

16/07 Mombasa 1:48.2 800m

30/07 A Kisumu 1:47.0 800m

13/08 Tunis 1:46.0 800m (3-Morceli 1:47.5) Afr. T

16/08 Bruxelles 1:45.21 800m (Enyeart 1:46.2; Coe 1:46.3;
Kipkurgart 1:46.3) VD

26/08 W. Berlin 1:45.09 800m (McLean 1:45.4; Wulbeck 1:45.7;
Hasler 1:46.2; Enyeart 1:46.3; Kipkurgat 1:46.4; Wessinghage 1:46.6; Singh 1:46.8; 9-Kipkurgat 1:47.9; 10-Omwansa 1:48.1) ISTAF

09/09 Crystal Palace 1:44.78 800m (Coe 1:45.0; McLean 1:45.6; Khalifa 1:47.4)
Coke

11/09 Furth 1:44.67 800m (Wulbeck 1:45.9; McLean 1:46.0;
Enyeart 1:46.2)

23/09 Wattenscheid 2:15.3 1000m (Wulbeck 2:16.3; Wessinghage 2:16.4;
Plachy 2:17.7; Savic 2:18.9) C.Rec

James Munyala won three world class steeples in one of Kenyas worst seasons of the event (no commonwealth games). But next year Rono was going to lower the world record by three seconds.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 1:27pm EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Aragon wrote:
Then who was the best of the era (~1965-1973) if not Kipchoge Keino in terms of personal best times / world records and Olympic medals?
And again, what is his best PR that shows most of capabilities?
Who was the "best" depends on your criteria of excellence. It can be a specialist or an all-rounder - as Keino tended to be.
At their peak, I think Ryun and Vasala were superior to Keino over the 1500/mile - notwithstanding the feat at Mexico that was favoured by altitude. Keino was nowhere near the ability of '67 Ryun, with his 3.33 1500 and his 3.51 mile. Vasala, who was a 1.44x 800 runner showed he was simply the better, faster, 1500 man when he beat him at Munich. (Jurgen May also beat Keino in '65, because he had a better finish.) Keino was meanwhile a more versatile athlete than they. Clarke, on the other hand, was a more prolific world record-breaker but did not fare as well in competition as Keino. Keino, however, never got near Clarke's records over the 5k and 10k.
Keino was probably the best all-rounder of his era, being competitive at every distance from 1500-10k, and including the steeplechase. But he held fewer world marks than some of his contemporaries - who had better times over the same distances - and was beaten by shorter-distance exponents - May, Ryun, Vasala - who had more finishing speed. At their best - and at their event - they were better than him and could beat him head to head, even if their careers were not as enduring.
So, in essence, no one else in his era was as versatile or had his range but there were others - specialists - who were better at their distances than he was (again, like Temu over 6m/10k).
Aside from the fluke that was his 1500 at Mexico I tend to think the race that best reflected his capabilities was his 3k record.

Yes, winning in the 2nd fastest time in history at the Olympics is a fluke. Keino also has beaten May in 64 and 65. But May was great in these years.

Probably the best all-rounder of his era? Who just comes close?

800m

better PB than the current 1500m Olympic Champion (and then Herb Elliott)

1500m

2nd fastest in history, Olympic Gold and Silver, 2 Golds at the Commonwealth Games (faster than Herb Elliott)

3000m

6 second improvement of the world record

5000m

world record, 2nd fastest until 1970, Olympic Silver, Gold and Bronze at the Commonwealth Games

10000m

3rd fastest in history

steeple

Olympic Gold after just a few tries

Yeah, probably the best all-rounder of his era. He IS the best (track) all-rounder of any era.

3 years ago 01/13/2023 2:00pm EST

re: slowwer

Keino, in an era before everyone over specialized, was A RUNNER. Keino wasn't just a 1500 runner, he was a bad-ass, take-no-prisoners competitor. Just one of the most brilliant and natural runners we've ever seen. And I don't believe for a second it was anything but natural talent. Kip was not a doper. And neither was Rono.

3 years ago 01/14/2023 12:47am EST

re: slowwer

slowwer wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Likewise, "if Clarke was taller than Keino then Keino was much taller than Clarke". English isn't your only problem. You are beyond rational discourse.
My statement is 100% correct: if Clarke was faster than Keino (as you claimed), than Keino was (for sure much) faster than Clarke.
The only question which remains: was Clarke faster than Keino? If YES, then Keino was faster than Clarke.
"taller than" is transitive, your example completely sucks. Like almost everything else you write.

Gibberish. As usual.

3 years ago 01/14/2023 12:53am EST

re: charlesyo1

charlesyo1 wrote:
Keino, in an era before everyone over specialized, was A RUNNER. Keino wasn't just a 1500 runner, he was a bad-ass, take-no-prisoners competitor. Just one of the most brilliant and natural runners we've ever seen. And I don't believe for a second it was anything but natural talent. Kip was not a doper. And neither was Rono.

I guess that means Vasala was even better - as he showed at Munich when he beat Keino. I also enjoy watch Ryun's world record 1500 in the '67 Coliseum Relays, when he ran 3.33.1 and destroyed Keino. If the '68 Olympics hadn't been at altitude and Ryun hadn't contracted glandular fever earlier in the year he would have owned him, as he regularly did from '65-'67.

3 years ago 01/14/2023 12:55am EST

re: slowwer

slowwer wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Who was the "best" depends on your criteria of excellence. It can be a specialist or an all-rounder - as Keino tended to be.
At their peak, I think Ryun and Vasala were superior to Keino over the 1500/mile - notwithstanding the feat at Mexico that was favoured by altitude. Keino was nowhere near the ability of '67 Ryun, with his 3.33 1500 and his 3.51 mile. Vasala, who was a 1.44x 800 runner showed he was simply the better, faster, 1500 man when he beat him at Munich. (Jurgen May also beat Keino in '65, because he had a better finish.) Keino was meanwhile a more versatile athlete than they. Clarke, on the other hand, was a more prolific world record-breaker but did not fare as well in competition as Keino. Keino, however, never got near Clarke's records over the 5k and 10k.
Keino was probably the best all-rounder of his era, being competitive at every distance from 1500-10k, and including the steeplechase. But he held fewer world marks than some of his contemporaries - who had better times over the same distances - and was beaten by shorter-distance exponents - May, Ryun, Vasala - who had more finishing speed. At their best - and at their event - they were better than him and could beat him head to head, even if their careers were not as enduring.
So, in essence, no one else in his era was as versatile or had his range but there were others - specialists - who were better at their distances than he was (again, like Temu over 6m/10k).
Aside from the fluke that was his 1500 at Mexico I tend to think the race that best reflected his capabilities was his 3k record.
Yes, winning in the 2nd fastest time in history at the Olympics is a fluke. Keino also has beaten May in 64 and 65. But May was great in these years.
Probably the best all-rounder of his era? Who just comes close?
800m
better PB than the current 1500m Olympic Champion (and then Herb Elliott)
1500m
2nd fastest in history, Olympic Gold and Silver, 2 Golds at the Commonwealth Games (faster than Herb Elliott)
3000m
6 second improvement of the world record
5000m
world record, 2nd fastest until 1970, Olympic Silver, Gold and Bronze at the Commonwealth Games
10000m
3rd fastest in history
steeple
Olympic Gold after just a few tries
Yeah, probably the best all-rounder of his era. He IS the best (track) all-rounder of any era.

An all-rounder who wasn't as good as some of the specialists in his era. Their fastest times were faster than his and they beat him.

3 years ago 01/14/2023 12:59am EST

re: slowwer

slowwer wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Your deluded fanaticism is certifiable.
Kenya was the most successful track distance running nation in the period 1964 - 1979.
The question is: what's the reason for this? can it be explained by doping? (which always means the rest doesn't dope or doesn't do it so successful).

Your definition of "success" leaves out that the winners mostly came from other countries. Kenya produced only two Olympic champions - both at altitude - in the 24 years before 1980. New Zealand did better than that.

A country that is one of the worst dopers on the planet will have always doped. Kenyans are the African "East Germans".

3 years ago 01/14/2023 2:22am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Aragon wrote:
Then who was the best of the era (~1965-1973) if not Kipchoge Keino in terms of personal best times / world records and Olympic medals?
And again, what is his best PR that shows most of capabilities?
Who was the "best" depends on your criteria of excellence. It can be a specialist or an all-rounder - as Keino tended to be.
At their peak, I think Ryun and Vasala were superior to Keino over the 1500/mile - notwithstanding the feat at Mexico that was favoured by altitude. Keino was nowhere near the ability of '67 Ryun, with his 3.33 1500 and his 3.51 mile. Vasala, who was a 1.44x 800 runner showed he was simply the better, faster, 1500 man when he beat him at Munich. (Jurgen May also beat Keino in '65, because he had a better finish.) Keino was meanwhile a more versatile athlete than they. Clarke, on the other hand, was a more prolific world record-breaker but did not fare as well in competition as Keino. Keino, however, never got near Clarke's records over the 5k and 10k.
Keino was probably the best all-rounder of his era, being competitive at every distance from 1500-10k, and including the steeplechase. But he held fewer world marks than some of his contemporaries - who had better times over the same distances - and was beaten by shorter-distance exponents - May, Ryun, Vasala - who had more finishing speed. At their best - and at their event - they were better than him and could beat him head to head, even if their careers were not as enduring.
So, in essence, no one else in his era was as versatile or had his range but there were others - specialists - who were better at their distances than he was (again, like Temu over 6m/10k).
Aside from the fluke that was his 1500 at Mexico I tend to think the race that best reflected his capabilities was his 3k record.

Evidently Keino wasn't the best mile/1500m runner at least from the times he clocked, but I think he was the best olympic runner even for 1500m when both OGs are taken into account. And even when he was worse in Munich, interestingly Pekka Vasala specifically said that he wouldn't focus on two distances after breaking the 800m European record (1:44.5), because it was just too difficult to triumph in two distances. Keino did just the opposite, and in addition to having many extra rounds to run, he could've lost most of his appetite after the 3000m steeplechase gold.

Whereas his PBs for 1500 and mile were very slightly slower than the fastest runner(s), Keino does hold one technically unique WR record in the era, mainly his 3000m time of 7:39.6. It is the longest distance with the highest IIAF score, 1179, and there wasn't a better IIAF score for that distance or the longer ones until his 3000m record was broken by Emiel Puttemans in 1972. It would roughly be equal to the following times in other distances, all the longer ones broken only ~a decade later:

3:34.71 (1500m
3:51.72 (mile)
8:17.34 (3000m steeple)
13:08.53 (5000m)
27:29.99 (10000m)
2:09:03 (marathon) [Clayton's faster 2:08:33 heavily disputed]

The obvious handicap for Keino was that the distances from 3000m to 10000m do not appear to have been that competed during his era that much highlighted by some really slow seasonal best times, e.g. 5000m of 13:28.96 (1969). Particularly 5000m looks interesting being quite similar to 3000m. When Keino broke the 5000m WR 13:24.2 in 1965, the physiologist Bengt Saltin said he wasn't surprised at all and revealed some details about Keino's test results, and his effort was described as a "morsel" ("munsbit") in the Swedish press. It would be interesting to know how many 5000m races he had at all at sea level after that.

And I think he is the best runner of his era because there is no other alternative candidate. WRs (one unique) and many PBs with almost WR times + most olympic medals during the era. Whatever one's criteria are, any other candidate doesn't come even close.

And I fully acknowledge that it would've been interesting to see Jim Ryun and Ron Clarke competing against the Kenyans at sea level in 1968.

3 years ago 01/14/2023 3:30am EST

re: Aragon

Kip Keino was not the most versatile athlete ever.

1:46.41 and 13:26 does not compare to 1:44.0 and 13:20 by Steve Ovett.

Ovett's 1/2 marathon and his 65:08 (jogging most of the way in a race he used as a last minute training run when his plane was cancelled, in borrowed shoes) 1 year after coming 5th in the 800m Olympic final, is a greater achievement and evidence of versatility than Keino's 1:46.41 and 28:06 10k.

Ovett ran 12 seconds faster for two miles waving to the crowd!

And they were not from completely different generations. Ovett ran his 800m pb just 6 years after Keino ran his - 2 1/2 seconds faster.

And if you want to compare by how close their performances were to the then current world records - Ovett's 1/2 marathon time was just 3 minutes and 1 second off the world record (it would have been less than 2 minutes off if run a few weeks earlier in the year). Keino's 10000m pb in 1972 was 30 seconds off the WR.

By the age of 22, Ovett had pbs in every event from the 800m to the 1/2 marathon (except the 10000m which he didn't run) which would have been the WR no more than 12 years previously (except, ironically, for the 1500m). This was a guy who never ran for times until he was 24 and was chasing Coe's WRs.

Aouita was far more versatile than Keino, and no more likely to have been doping than him.

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There is no “genetic superiority” when it comes to distance running. Literally everyone sub 2:09 is just doping.

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