There is no “genetic superiority” when it comes to distance running. Literally everyone sub 2:09 is just doping.

Racism.

I agree that most East Africans are doping, but I also believe they have the physical advantage of simply having smaller bodies, which is incredibly advantageous in the marathon. Also, all sub 2:09s are dirty? I don't think so. There is no evidence to suggest that Japanese marathoners are dirty.

spyro the dragon wrote:

I agree that most East Africans are doping, but I also believe they have the physical advantage of simply having smaller bodies, which is incredibly advantageous in the marathon. Also, all sub 2:09s are dirty? I don't think so. There is no evidence to suggest that Japanese marathoners are dirty.

I don’t think there is any evidence that East Africans way smaller bones ....????

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

Borderline wrote:

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

Ah, yes. People tend to forget that the only two possible mechanisms for sport-wide progression over time are EPO and magic. That’s why every athlete who’s run a mile faster than Bannister is either a doper, a witch, or both.

Borderline wrote:

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

Jonesey ran 2:07 low off a positive split and no pacemakers back in 1985.

Given that, you gotta say 2:06 was possible clean back then. And given today's shoes (VF) and nutrition, you're looking at 2:05 at least being a reasonable cut off for clean athletes.

Then I'm sure there are people more talented than jonesey , so suddenly 2:04 doesnt look so far off

Qwertu wrote:

Borderline wrote:

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

Ah, yes. People tend to forget that the only two possible mechanisms for sport-wide progression over time are EPO and magic. That’s why every athlete who’s run a mile faster than Bannister is either a doper, a witch, or both.

Jim Ryun and his coaches saw how Roger Bannister trained. Ryun and coaches thought it smart to double or triple the quality of training and quadruple the volume of Bannister's training. Ryun was not really built for the 1500m/one mile. Runners with similar 800m ability as Ryun had but weigh thirty or forty pounds less. These modern runners race in lighter weight shoes. These modern runners race on 400m tracks that return more energy than tracks in Ryun's day.

Smaller bones lol? wrote:

spyro the dragon wrote:

I agree that most East Africans are doping, but I also believe they have the physical advantage of simply having smaller bodies, which is incredibly advantageous in the marathon. Also, all sub 2:09s are dirty? I don't think so. There is no evidence to suggest that Japanese marathoners are dirty.

I don’t think there is any evidence that East Africans way smaller bones ....????

ya'll should read the Sports Gene. let science instead of feeling help form your opinion. maybe not bone size but I remember from the book a lot on having smaller legs, overall. so they carry less mass & benefit which equals in having better running economy. in some ways, they're just more efficient runners.

I think it's true that doping can put athletes into the same tier and others over the top but east Africans have been dominating the 800 on up going back a pretty long time. it helps to have a culture where running is the top sport and to be at altitude with good genes.

There absolutely is genetic superiority when it comes to distance running. From middle school to the Olympics, genetics is why the fastest people are faster than people who work just as hard or harder. Genetic traits are not equally distributed around the world. There are lots of people in a small regional East Africa with genetic traits that favor distance running. You'll find the same uneven distribution of genes everywhere and on every scale. Some siblings are faster than others. It may not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth, as scientifically proven and verifiable as anything else you can imagine.

Borderline wrote:

Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

I don’t know a single person who thinks that.

NERunner053 wrote:

I think it's true that doping can put athletes into the same tier and others over the top but east Africans have been dominating the 800 on up going back a pretty long time. it helps to have a culture where running is the top sport and to be at altitude with good genes.

Running is the top sport and doping is prevalent. They have the body type to produce sub-elite runners en masse without doping, and with doping, a degree of domination. Would they be dominant or even winning without doping? We don't know yet, and might never, but we can observe that as testing increases, the busts increase, and times go backwards.

There is no evidence that altitude will lead to 'domination' at 800m. Peruvians and other peoples live their lives at altitude and dominate nothing.

With the rampant doping going on in Kenya that is now evident with every new bust, it they had a superior genetic advantage, and given you yourself state it's the most popular sport, their domination would be way more than it is. Only two Kenyans have ran faster than Seb Coe did four decades ago on much inferior tracks, in worse shoes, and with far, far worse pacing and competion. Only two Kenyans have ran faster than 3:27.6, a time that surely Elliott, Ryun, Cram, Coe, Ovett would be running today, and both those Kenyans failed tests (or at least with Lagat, failed half a test).

It's quite possible that they wont win a gold in any male track event this year other than the steeplechase. It's quite probable they wont win a gold medal in any male track event next year in Tokyo other than the steeplechase. And that's before any of the busts of their favorites that are likely to happen before or during the Tokyo Games. I think Kenya sent seven male runners to contest the 800, 1500, and 5000 at the 2017 WCs in London, and 3 of them have already been busted (Kiprop, Bett, and Rutto). Two of them were medalists.

To continue to ignore the overwhelming evidence of doping in Kenya and the contribution it makes to their success is quite sick at this stage, especially given the demotivating effect it has on young athletes from other continents.

Borderline wrote:

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

The Marathon times now are also faster than they were when EPO use was completely undetectable. So unless you think runners benefit from NOT being able to freely load up on EPO in-competition, that is not the only explanation.

More like 2:06, maybe 2:05 due to the 4%. But yeah, anyone running under 2:04 is a joke.

Seyta wrote:

Borderline wrote:

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

The Marathon times now are also faster than they were when EPO use was completely undetectable. So unless you think runners benefit from NOT being able to freely load up on EPO in-competition, that is not the only explanation.

the money hadn't move to the roads yet in the 90s. track races where the winner was getting 6 figures. Also, EPO wouldn't be the main drug of choice for the marathon.

Two books, The Sports Gene and The Bolt Supremacy lead one to believe that the Jamaicans had a gene or some magical quality to sprint fast. Interesting how that seemed to diminish once they started to get tested. Same thing will happen once the doors are blown off of Kenya and Ethiopia. In the meantime they have destroyed the worlds interest in road racing and 5k and 10k on the track.

Alabama BS wrote:

Two books, The Sports Gene and The Bolt Supremacy lead one to believe that the Jamaicans had a gene or some magical quality to sprint fast. Interesting how that seemed to diminish once they started to get tested. Same thing will happen once the doors are blown off of Kenya and Ethiopia. In the meantime they have destroyed the worlds interest in road racing and 5k and 10k on the track.

Too many runners gave Sports Gene and David Epstein too much credit. David Epstein was never a great athlete. David Epstein never was a great coach. David Epstein majored in journalism in college. Epstein is not a scientists. He made some general observations. He made statements about west African blacks and east African blacks. Everything was overly simplistic. Slave trade routes, 15th Century through 19th Century were not as simple as Epstein stated. It is exaggerated to state blacks in western hemisphere is populated with west African blacks. How does Epstein justify U.S. white men being best sprinters in the world 1896 through 1928 Olympics? There must be a sprint culture in U.S. and Caribbean which Epstein never addresses. Epstein does not properly address cool temperatures in Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and parts of South Africa due to elevation which aide distrance running success.

poppin vegan lifeline pills wrote:

Racism.

This gave me a good laugh thank you

East Africans have shown the genetic ability and agility to evade testing for decades. So once again it comes back to the genes.

Qwertu wrote:

Borderline wrote:

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

Ah, yes. People tend to forget that the only two possible mechanisms for sport-wide progression over time are EPO and magic. That’s why every athlete who’s run a mile faster than Bannister is either a doper, a witch, or both.

lol +1