2:19 on 70-80 miles per week.

I disagree. He has plenty of speed. You need to get his endurance-stamina and specific running economy at around 5:10-5:18 per mile pace better. Some 3km-5km repeats at slightly slower than Threshold (5:10 pace) and some specific 35km Long runs with more fat burning, high aerobic paces with negative splits down to (5:15 to 5:40 pace) probably would be in order IMO.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Phil and I will be back at the marathon. But now I think it will wait for a while. I will get him running faster at shorter distances first and back to his best 5 k/10k and beyond. Then he will be ready to run a fast marathon. Speed time!

The main key is to get his threshold better.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Phil and I will be back at the marathon. But now I think it will wait for a while. I will get him running faster at shorter distances first and back to his best 5 k/10k and beyond. Then he will be ready to run a fast marathon. Speed time!

The main key is to get his threshold better.

Phil barely hung onto his goal pace for half the distance, so you think he needs to train for shorter events? His problem is that he burns carbohydrates way too quickly and doesn't have a good marathon fuel tank. The marathon is a metabolic event.

You're flawed because most of your success has been working with Kenyans who have a large base. Phil doesn't have that. You have created a mythical program that you think works with everyone but you don't know how to train individuals from a variety of backgrounds.

I don't doubt you'll have Phil run fast over shorter distances but he needs to find a coach who understands the marathon if he wants to run under 2:19. I predicted he'd have trouble running 2:22 off a 1:10 first half, but he was much less prepared for the course and distance than I thought.

I thoroughly enjoyed this. Great thread to read during the year and Phil still did great. Marathons are miserable, and to run that fast for that far..he has my respect. Out there in the dark snd cold at 5am grinding out all of those training runs.. a true boss.

35-40K in 22:38...

2:22:04 for 40 k

Last 5 k 22:38 (7:18)

I think it's too early to tell what exactly went wrong.

Maybe Phil didn't sleep well? Stomach problems? It could be a thousand things

We should way for his input on what exactly made him lose steam over the course of the race

2:24:04

2:25:27 for Zach

This thread was enjoyable to follow and I have to say I know Phil didn't hit his goal, but I have mad respect for him as well. I could only dream of running that fast for even half the distance.

Great job Phil!

Prefontaine91 wrote:

Zach is done.

Phil is running slower than 6 min per mile, probably 6:10-6:15.

But anyway, he is a man.

There is no easy way to run fast, especially a marathon.

Doubles, mileage about 5000-5500 miles per year and a lot of core workout, plyometrics, hills and so on and maybe he will

run a nice time.

It`s not like that Prefontaine 91 . But even to run fast on relatively low mileage is of course not

an easy thing. You got to do your maxVO2 and LT intervals at your individual best pace and stay consistent until the super compensation enters.

2:33:46

Congrats!

Third fastest out of 7 marathons, pretty good really!

Yes-yes.

2:33:36 vs sub 2:19

You will never understand that.

There are plenty of examples in history with fast marathoners in the top elite and still low mileage. I myself ran 2:22:09

on just 55-65 mpw and nowadays I know I just should have run faster at my threshold work. Phil will now rest up a week and then we start to better up his maxVO2 and LT - intervals. Have you noticed the training of Bernard Lagat ?

@SouthernFriedRealist,

I completely agree to what you write. This sentence:

> The marathon is a metabolic event.

is the core statement imho. I think the key element in marathon training are long runs (>35k) with end acelleration - but sustained fast pace, not intervals. And it is very important to run the first 15k very economically and better a few seconds slower than target pace. The first 15k have to be very easy ( a few sec slower than target pace), then from 15..25k it can be slightly faster that target pace. That leaves the option to keep this pace till 30 or 35. I also wondered Phil wrote he'll take a few gels during the race. I experienced that it is very hard to digest something during a faster race, you have to get most of the energy out of what you have inside at the starting line. You need to run economically enough that you burn enough fat in the first half that you reach close to the final with a few carbohydrates in the tank. I really like this thread a lot. But I think I believe now more than before that there are no "secret shortcuts"...

It is actually too soon to judge, I'm looking forward to what Phil will say. But I was very surprised on how fast he went out and how early he had to slow down. Must have been a painful race for him.

I will never reach that sub 235 region, I have deep respect for anybody who is able to run such a fast marathon. Congrats Phil! I'm sure that this was not your day and that you'll get a race soon that feels more like a triumph for you

2:22 with a 5k of 14:20ish?

There is some aerobic freaks, maybe 1 %.

Also, if you still believes that Lagar and Coe ran 50 miles, so you know zero about coaching.

Of course there is some people running several years high mileage, let's say 90-100 per week and changed their

mileage to 50-60 with higher percentage of intensity and you say " Look, he ran so fast only with 50 miles per week",

that's funny.

Also, you know nothing about people running "low mileage".

Some of them ran 50-60 miles + used a lot of different load like bicycle, ski, even 2-3 hours of fast walking.

You could run faster with 100 miles per week.

I am sure that you were running years of high mileage, then dropped to 60-65 withing 3-4 months and figured out

"Oh, I can run 2.22 with low mileage " :D

What age you ran that marathon at ?

What have you done before that race ?

How many years have you been running before that race ?

How many training sessions have you done ?

And also. 2:22 is not fast at all, especially nowadays.

Bekele or Kipchoge could run 2:08 at 40 miles per week and what ? That means nothing about "optimal mileage".

We still have to wait on what Phil has to say, but one thing that could be pointed out:

The challenge was to run "2:19 on 70-80 miles per week", however it seems to me like most weeks had a mileage inferior even to 70. Maybe add a little mileage by increasing the duration of the easy runs?

The scientific evidence is in!!!!!!! No magic in JS's system!!! I feel bad for Phil since he wasted all his time with those crappy workouts!!! You have to do the miles if you want to run the times!!!! Doing a bunch of hard sessions don't make you run a better Marathon because it takes miles and time!! Will JS now admit it?? He was wrong!! I actually knew it was going to go down like this. It was like watching a train wreck about to happen!! It's okay Phil blame it all on JS. You should be proud of yourself because actually you did a lot better and think of it this way you could have done a whole lot better if you hadn't followed JS's system. Now do yourself a favor and block his telephone number and never talk to him again.

That`s what I`m telling. I should have run faster at the marathon if I had done my thresholds faster. Next marathon for Phil ,when it will be, he will be ready to run sub 2:19. He will first do paces in training that will predict a safe 2:15 -2:16 marathon if I can decide.