Is heat really a poor mans altitude?

[3.1]Miles Davis wrote:

Heat no. Humidity yes

I always found this to be true. Every summer before cross practice would start, I'd be on a family vacation in Hawaii and the humidity would just kick my ass into shape. The heat was usually a factor too but the humidity pushed it over the edge. Not sure it compares directly to altitude but it sure gets you fit.

different physiological systems

altitude increases the body's red blood cell production, making you more efficient at carrying oxygen, ie, faster

heat increases HR and cardiovascular strain at same pace, and training would improve ability for heart to function, decrease HR at same pace in lower temps

both make you more efficient

Heat is useless.

Few things:

- Some people will always say, "there's something wrong with all of these studies." The evidence will never be good enough for them. But the benefits of heat, even for racing in cool conditions, is pretty well established by the standards that are usually considered evidence in endurance training. It's well beyond the stage where a reasonable person should be saying, "but it just doesn't make sense that heat would help." Random musings untethered to evidence are not sufficient at this point.

- Why don't pro runners train in the heat? They absolutely do. It's becoming quite common for pro athletes to do "heat camps" before competition, even if the competition is not expected to be hot. Also, it's easy to get artificial heat by overdressing on a treadmill, so you may not see what they're doing. They don't have to travel and post it on instagram, and they might not want their competitors to know that they're doing it.

- The research suggests that heat adaptation happens quickly. It's probably not necessary (though there may be some additional benefits) to training in a warm climate all through your training block. A lot of people start to do it at the same time as the taper.

- Heat undoubtedly slows you down, so there are complications to working it into your training. The tested protocols suggest doing an easier runs in the heat and harder runs in cooler weather. If this isn't an option, there are other modifications you can try. When I do marathon training in the heat, I do my MP runs as intervals. A very hard workout would be 5x3 miles at MP with about 5-10 minutes recovery (as needed) to cool off slightly between reps. I'll stand in the shade and take down a but of blended ice from an insulated bottle. I find this works pretty well because the thing that matters in MP is total miles (you're not accumulating oxygen debt at those paces). For faster races, you probably need a mix of training. Some intervals at sea level race pace with longer recoveries than you'd otherwise have, some intervals at race pace effort.

- The injury prevention benefit is not part of the research, but it makes sense. I've always felt as though one of the reasons I'm always healthy in the fall is that my average pace during the summer drops.

- Distinguishing between "training the legs" and "training the aerobic system" is not all that easy to do. A lot of the aerobic adaptations that make the difference for highly trained athletes happen locally, in the exercising muscles. You may subjectively feel like it's your legs rather than your lungs that are limiting you in a hard effort, but if you've ever trained at altitude, you'll recognize that after an adaptation period, it's still the legs that feel like they hold you back, even though you're 20 seconds/per mile slower than at sea level and the reason is likely lack of oxygen.

- Yes, heat is a stressor, and altitude is a stressor. The more stress you add in one area, the more you need to remove in another area to continue adapting and not overtraining. If you're training right at the edge in ideal conditions and you add heat, you're probably not going to have good results.

Morning and evening this time of year, it's plenty hot enough for a lot of posters here to get the adaptions without slowing down too much.

Mid day running in the southern states in summer? No, that would be too much.

How many threads do we really need on this pseudoscientific claim?

it is a simple question wrote:

10 miles yesterday in pretty bad heat and humidity: pace: 8 minute, heart rate: 148

10 miles last January in nice cool weather and on a much hillier course: pace: 7:30, heart rate: 148

Am I getting the same aerobic benefit?

No, not in my opinion.

Drunk Letsrun wrote:

How many threads do we really need on this pseudoscientific claim?

If you run the right pace for the right amount of time at the right temperature/humidity, you can run more efficiently.

I mean if your sweat is evaporating enough that 20% of your blood is being directed to your skin and your oxygen uptake is 20% less than perfect conditions for race, but you are only running 5 or 10% slower....

..and if you can transfer some of that efficiency into running faster in cooler conditions but for the same effort.....

you get the drift?

If you heat train at altitude, you are a wealthy runner!

This week it has been hotter than average in Cbus, but cooler yesterday.

Tuesday: 6 miles in 50:36 easy, 83'F

Wednesday: 5 miles in 41:30 easy, 87'F

Thursday: 7 miles in 56:29 easy, 81'F

Even as little at 5'F decline off of what you're used to feels amazing. I'm up to 42-45 mpw and still feeling strong and not overdoing it.

Fast 3 today and a 12-13 long run tomorrow easy.

Ciro wrote:

it is a simple question wrote:

10 miles yesterday in pretty bad heat and humidity: pace: 8 minute, heart rate: 148

10 miles last January in nice cool weather and on a much hillier course: pace: 7:30, heart rate: 148

Am I getting the same aerobic benefit?

No, not in my opinion.

Why not and which one is the person getting more benefit from?

Sometimes heat is a blessing in disguise.

Yep I've been able to reduce my EZ pace and get more mileage in so heat's not a problem. That way I can do a 12-13 LR right now and not feel like my legs will fall off, and I won't be scared off by 60 mpw and get hurt.

Do schools in the south east do better in fall XC or spring track?