El Keniano wrote:
Superstar Cyrus Rutto has failed to make Kenyan headlines. Maybe the Western media will allocate appropriate space for this “top” Kenyan?
NO Kenyans are important. That craphole has one export: Doped up skeletal runners. They (and you) lie about their drug use, age, and probably gender). Ban those dishonest stick figures and their dim witted defenders.
You dopehead wrote:
El Keniano wrote:
Superstar Cyrus Rutto has failed to make Kenyan headlines. Maybe the Western media will allocate appropriate space for this “top” Kenyan?
NO Kenyans are important. That craphole has one export: Doped up skeletal runners. They (and you) lie about their drug use, age, and probably gender). Ban those dishonest stick figures and their dim witted defenders.
You seem like a delightful person.
Geo dood wrote:
Argh yes way wrote:
I also look at numbers online and they don't lie, so...let's try this another way: Rutto's PB is 13:03.44 - only 8 Americans have been faster with no American beating that time in the last 4 yrs.
Uhhhh an American ran faster than that less than a year ago.
Who?
Geo dood wrote:
Geo dood wrote:
Uhhhh an American ran faster than that less than a year ago.
....and 11 Americans in total. You can't count very well.
No....I'm not counting the Kenyan transplants - they go with the Kenyan group.
toptom wrote:
You dopehead wrote:
NO Kenyans are important. That craphole has one export: Doped up skeletal runners. They (and you) lie about their drug use, age, and probably gender). Ban those dishonest stick figures and their dim witted defenders.
You seem like a delightful person.
I'm DTF and my anus is in top shape, if that's what you mean, bro.
Let's Think This One Through wrote:
Geo dood wrote:
Uhhhh an American ran faster than that less than a year ago.
Who?
PAUL CHELIMO
Argh yes way wrote:
Geo dood wrote:
....and 11 Americans in total. You can't count very well.
No....I'm not counting the Kenyan transplants - they go with the Kenyan group.
Oh....you're one of those people who don't understand how nationalities work. I suppose you think that it wasn't the French that won the World Cup either.
*eyeroll*
Geo dood wrote:
Let's Think This One Through wrote:
Who?
PAUL CHELIMO
Paul Chelimo is a KENYAN TRANSPLANT!
Geo dood wrote:
Argh yes way wrote:
No....I'm not counting the Kenyan transplants - they go with the Kenyan group.
Oh....you're one of those people who don't understand how nationalities work. I suppose you think that it wasn't the French that won the World Cup either.
*eyeroll*
Stupid post - I don't think you have a clue as to what I'm talking about. So, let's try this still another way:
Do you remember rekrunner's meticulously researched project from 2018 titled under this thread: "A closer look at EPO-era performances?"
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8635957In the introduction, he explains the methodology used when extrapolating the raw data. Of note is this: "NOTE: Africans imported to other countries were counted as East Africans or North Africans, depending on their heritage, and not citizenship."
When comparing times & performances among runners world-wide if you didn't adjust for heritage it would look really misleading.
For example, America got really fast of a sudden in the 1500, so fast that an American ran the *2nd* fastest 1500 just a few ticks behind El G (Lagat/3:26.34). This same American also holds the nation's fastest 5000 (12:53.60).
And how about the UK? An Englishman literally destroyed the 5 & 10 running some top OA times and winning 4 Olympic & 6 WC gold medals!, and also running a very fast 1500 (3:28xx) Wow!...and Coevett said the Brits have sucked in the 1500 since the Coe, Cram & Ovett glory years.
And did you know Belgium is producing sizzling fast runners? Morrocan born Mohammed Mourhit who acquired Belgium citizenship has a top 5000 (12:49xx) & 10,000 (26:52xx). I never would have guessed Belgium could produce a runner as fast as the East Africans. I always thought Belgium was noted for it's world-class cyclists ?
So, I guess rekrunner was completely wrong when his stats showed that non-African nations didn't perform as well as the African nations. You've got an American running the 2nd fastest 15 ever, an Englishman dominating the 5 & 10 like never seen before and a Belgian running some of the fastest 5s & 10s in the history of the sport!
Incredible! *eyeroll* ?
Nobody wants me dragged into yet another doping discussion.
I'll just note that adding another example to a "proof by example" does not fix the fallacy.
Yes, I did a performance analysis based on ethnic heritage rather than citizenship, being careful not to say things like "no American ran faster", which might be interpreted to include Kenyan-Americans.
Who said they look at the numbers, and numbers don't lie? Two numbers I saw:
In my look at performance, my 1990-cutoff definition of top-times was 13:02, a really fast time for 1990.
This best Kenyan 2017 WC finalist placed 13th/14th in the 2017 WC final.
I trust the AIU, that if they charged Rutto with an ABP violation, they have a solid basis for that charge, and he should be punished to the full extent in accordance with anti-doping rules.
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/sports/article/2001320562/another-blow-for-kenya-as-cyrus-ruto-fails-doping-testEl Keniano wrote:
Superstar Cyrus Rutto has failed to make Kenyan headlines. Maybe the Western media will allocate appropriate space for this “top” Kenyan?
Notice also that the comments by real Kenyans under these articles express a very different attitude to that our resident racial identity fraudster.
rekrunner wrote:
Nobody wants me dragged into yet another doping discussion.
I'll just note that adding another example to a "proof by example" does not fix the fallacy.
C'mon rekrunner. It's clear that you've been reading all the doping posts regularly probably chopping at the bit to jump in -- and as soon as someone mentions your name, you're in full-throttle. Lol.
rekrunner wrote:
Who said they look at the numbers, and numbers don't lie? Two numbers I saw:
In my look at performance, my 1990-cutoff definition of top-times was 13:02, a really fast time for 1990.
An for the umpteenth time, how do you know those times pre-90's were not influenced by the PEDs of that era? (which would make them faster than they should be ?).
There's plenty of evidence of wide-spread PED use pre-90's (you obviously haven't been paying attention to the history of that era - unless you really think everyone was running around on bread and water. Lol). I always thought you were simply comparing PED use of one era with another and two forms of O2-vector doping, e.g., blood-doping use pre-90's with the more available & wide-spread use of EPO, and later blood transfusions post-EPO test (for those that had the resources & money).
rekrunner wrote:
I trust the AIU, that if they charged Rutto with an ABP violation, they have a solid basis for that charge, and he should be punished to the full extent in accordance with anti-doping rules.
You must be worried about your "doping apologists" reputation? Lol.
Argh yes way wrote:
[quote]Geo dood wrote:
No....I'm not counting the Kenyan transplants - they go with the Kenyan group.
That's quite right when North and East African runners can live or study for a couple of years in the US or Europe and then get citizenship, spending half their time at their remote African training camps.
https://www.flotrack.org/articles/5038602-mo-trafeh-caught-with-epo-at-airportMo Farah - who is much more Western than most of these transplants - moved to the UK at 9, went to a school likely dominated by fellow African immigrants, was pigeonholed as an xcross country runner by his teachers because of East African background (even though he wanted to be a footballer), only became elite when he started living and training with a group of Kenyans in London, then moved to the USA and became a GOAT - and all this time spending half the year in his remote East African hideouts. About as British as I am Czech.
If doping is a problem in Africa, then African transplants in Europe and USA are likely to share the same problem.
Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:
I always thought you were simply comparing PED use of one era with another and two forms of O2-vector doping, e.g., blood-doping use pre-90's with the more available & wide-spread use of EPO, and later blood transfusions post-EPO test (for those that had the resources & money).
+1
Because he is. And let's not forget - like Baumann did - that pre-90 the steroid use was safer than post-90.
rekrunner wrote:
I trust the AIU, that if they charged Rutto with an ABP violation, they have a solid basis for that charge, and he should be punished to the full extent in accordance with anti-doping rules.
You must be worried about your "doping apologists" reputation? Lol.[/quote]
He said to call him doper apologist, not doping apologist.
rekrunner wrote:
If I "defend" a person, this is not defending their doping. I guess you could say "doper apologist", but no one ever does.
It's one possibility, but one that remains irrelevant, even after umpteen times. Maybe to be avoid confusion, I should have used a neutral reference like 1050 Purdy points, or 80 VDOT. Just the same, using a slower "clean" pre-1990 reference will not make Rutto any faster.
Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:
An for the umpteenth time, how do you know those times pre-90's were not influenced by the PEDs of that era? (which would make them faster than they should be ?).
There's plenty of evidence of wide-spread PED use pre-90's (you obviously haven't been paying attention to the history of that era - unless you really think everyone was running around on bread and water. Lol). I always thought you were simply comparing PED use of one era with another and two forms of O2-vector doping, e.g., blood-doping use pre-90's with the more available & wide-spread use of EPO, and later blood transfusions post-EPO test (for those that had the resources & money).
Geo dood wrote:
Argh yes way wrote:
No....I'm not counting the Kenyan transplants - they go with the Kenyan group.
Oh....you're one of those people who don't understand how nationalities work. I suppose you think that it wasn't the French that won the World Cup either.
*eyeroll*
Ahhhh, so you're one of THOSE. Yes, the French won the world cup, but they didn't have Frenchmen on their team. Even Griezman, while close to being French...is not really French. Many of the others are distant aliens from the French.
rekrunner wrote:
It's one possibility, but one that remains irrelevant, even after umpteen times.
Maybe to be avoid confusion, I should have used a neutral reference like 1050 Purdy points, or 80 VDOT.
Just the same, using a slower "clean" pre-1990 reference will not make Rutto any faster.
C'mon man...why is it every time a doping case is brought up and the athlete's PBs are referenced you always have to bring up those nebulous pre-1990 "cutoff" times? And if the athlete hasn't run faster than the cutoff time(s), you grandstand with that "ah-ha" moment that doping must have been ineffective. OTOH, when a doper is shown to have a faster PB than your cutoff time(s), you'll say the faster time doesn't prove that doping enhanced performance.
Case in point: Let's take Mourhit -- he has the fastest 5000 time (12:49.71) of a confirmed doper (EPO/2002). His time is ~13 seconds faster than your pre-90's "cutoff" time of 13:02, or about 1.7%. Now you have said in the past that doesn't prove anything because he could have achieve that time from improved training, better nutrition, footwear, pacers, etc. -- other factors unrelated to the blood manipulation. So, you're too incessant to have a fair discussion on these doping cases.
There's now been 2 ABP cases with Kenyans in the last couple of months. Chepchirchir was the first one and I'm surprised you haven't given the "cutoff" times to compare with with her PBs, which range from the 10k, 20k, HM & marathon. ?
Two posters (and not me posting anonymously) mentioned my analysis and cutoff before I posted. It is a simple fact that 13:03 is slower than 13:02, an arbitrary criteria I defined 1 year ago, in a thread looking closer at the fastest performances post-1990. There is no "aha" moment about doping being ineffective, but just a confirmation that he was excluded from that analysis. With respect to Mourhit, his 12:49.71 was in 2000, and his EPO bust was in 2002. If you truly want a "fair discussion", I find it's not fair to assume the conclusion, add another assumption, ignore everything else, in order to conclude the assumptions. Chepchirchir was part of my performance analysis in the marathon, factoring in "quantity", but being 11th fastest East African, was too slow to contribute to the "quality" calculation. No need for me to discuss cutoff times. ? Since you ask, she did not meet the cutoff for 10K and I did not look at the 20K or HM.
Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:
C'mon man...why is it every time a doping case is brought up and the athlete's PBs are referenced you always have to bring up those nebulous pre-1990 "cutoff" times? And if the athlete hasn't run faster than the cutoff time(s), you grandstand with that "ah-ha" moment that doping must have been ineffective. OTOH, when a doper is shown to have a faster PB than your cutoff time(s), you'll say the faster time doesn't prove that doping enhanced performance.
Case in point: Let's take Mourhit -- he has the fastest 5000 time (12:49.71) of a confirmed doper (EPO/2002). His time is ~13 seconds faster than your pre-90's "cutoff" time of 13:02, or about 1.7%. Now you have said in the past that doesn't prove anything because he could have achieve that time from improved training, better nutrition, footwear, pacers, etc. -- other factors unrelated to the blood manipulation. So, you're too incessant to have a fair discussion on these doping cases.
There's now been 2 ABP cases with Kenyans in the last couple of months. Chepchirchir was the first one and I'm surprised you haven't given the "cutoff" times to compare with with her PBs, which range from the 10k, 20k, HM & marathon. ?
My take:
Some Kenyans will dope with EPO because it can improve their performance (sorry Renato) and they could win some prize money (most of which Mr Rosa will take).
Brits won't get busted, as they have Loughborough Uni and UK Sport, providing and funding respectively largely undetectable doping analogues which will be used in lieu of 'traditional' PEDs such as EPO.
you gung ho drug testing save the day people.
regulatory bodies become corrupt.
and they become self important.
and testers, the wrong people, wallow in their power over others, like bad cops.
now the case of abuse in morocco may or may not be legit.
but there shall be no doubt that the so called integrity unit, under the umbrella of corrupt groups, will be doing a
lot of weird sheit, stuff like extortion in the third or even first world.
there is your orwellian fair play system for you.
i'd rather have lance taking epo, as opposed a knock on my door at any hour, and a position locator, slave to the system thing going on.
your good intents turn out to be more evil than imagined, a policy of stalin, hitler at the end of the day.