Rein, LLP wrote:
****Adam and Kara Goucher****
What was your last name, Chad? And where are you from in Colorado?
Take your pick:
https://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&lr=&newwindow=1&as_qdr=all&ei=nvsBXNe4C9DorQHD3a_gBA&q=chad+runner+colorado&oq=chad+runner+colorado&gs_l=psy-ab.12...231080.231080..234096...0.0..0.1089.1089.7-1......0....1..gws-wiz._IVTpdwCrkUWhat about this possibility - perhaps the Goucher's WERE involved with some doping and blew the whistle to USADA after the email dump but before more came out.
Perhaps they admitted to USADA their involvement - but cut a deal to keep it quiet until NOP's activities could be PROVEN?
So we don't know they haven't owned up - just not publicly.
Wouldn't that be awesome! But I highly doubt it.
In any case: drug cheats out!
Gwalkerruns wrote:
So tired of the Gouchers. Here is what they expect you to believe. That:
-both were great runners in the nop while doping was going on but they did none.
-that Kara had the most success of any nop runners but everyone else was doping.
- that they left nop but kept their mouths shut for a period of time because?
-that Kara never repeated her success that she had at nop but was not doping at anytime.
-that Kara went to the same doctor the nop guys did but.......
If they saw doping the only valid time to report it was when it happened. Sorry, you do not get to wait. It comes off more likely as sour grapes and pettiness. Grow up and move on.
Exactly dude.
Not everyone. After the BBC documentary in 2015, I said that USADA would be powerless to act against Salazar or any NOP athletes, being limited to: - referring some of the allegations to the appropriate state, national or international authorities - lobbying for rule changes concerning abuse of non-banned prescription drugs Most recently Tygart called prescription drug abuse the "next frontier" in the battle against doping. Some related rule changes have already occurred, but in NOP's direction: WADA has since increased the 50ml/6-hour infusion limit to 100ml/12-hours. In 2016, Kara said something similar "Justice is coming" suggesting that there are details that didn't appear in the BBC documentary. We are coming up to the 3-year anniversary of that statement. I don't understand this "fan" backlash against the Gouchers, for two different reasons: 1) If the NOP "wrong-doing" wasn't in fact wrong, then the Gouchers also did not participate in anything wrong at the NOP 2) If the goal is to "clean up" the sport, we should encourage athletes and staff, with access to inside information, to step forward
innocent whistleblowers wrote:
The NOP investigation hasn't played out how I think anyone anticipated. It hasn't sprung the steroid or EPO domino effect of confessions and clear evidence implicating wrongdoing. The Gouchers are unique whistleblowers in sport--claiming they saw some fairly ill-defined wrongdoing, but not participating in any wrongdoing themselves. I can't think of any notable whistleblowers who didn't actively participate in the wrongdoing and I think that's part of what makes me skeptical.
The investigation also points out how opaque the sport of track and field is. I can believe that NOP operates in the gray area and may even cross the line, from time to time. But I have a hard time believing that other pro groups, specifically, the other well-funded Nike group, Bowerman TC, aren't doing the same things. And we have no way of knowing whether or not that is true aside from rumors and quite frankly, how likeable the athletes and coaches in that group.
innocent whistleblowers wrote:
The NOP investigation hasn't played out how I think anyone anticipated. It hasn't sprung the steroid or EPO domino effect of confessions and clear evidence implicating wrongdoing.
Disagreed. I didn't expect anything from such toothless investigation; USADA literally had to beg the team to handover the evidence, and please to not lie.
As we know, not even the whistleblowers were ready to admit to any wrongdoing, and Salazar openly told his active athletes to lie to USADA (didn't that one come out because Tara broke down in tears?).
We'd need to criminalize doping if we want change, such as a raid of NOP. That will never happen because of baseball/basketball/football.
And let's not forget we are talking about USADA here. They love to let us get away with doping, see e.g. Wilson and Roberts, and yes, Armstrong before his retirement. (Armstrong was only caught because of the FEDs and witnesses, not because USADA caught him.)
So, I expect at most a 6 - 12 month ban for Magness (2011/2, so he'll have to return his medal from his turkey trot), and a stern scolding of Salazar for experimenting with testo and too large injections and legal drugs.
>1) If the NOP "wrong-doing" wasn't in fact wrong, then the Gouchers also did not participate in anything wrong at the NOP
In which case they are merely defaming the coach and teamates who made Kara's entire career.
>2) If the goal is to "clean up" the sport, we should encourage athletes and staff, with access to inside information, to step forward
In which case, they need to confess to drug use and Kara needs to hand back that medal, until then, here's some vague implications of wrong doing that we think we can get away with, without implicating ourselves.
So in either scenario, the Gouchers are guilty of something, whereas Salazaar has innocent until proven guilty working for him, and we can't even rule out that the Goucher sour grapes are really about an affair between Salazaar and Kara.
USADA ultimately had the cooperative testimony of 19 former NOP athletes and staff. In a criminal context, I guess the main question would be if you could convince a judge that there was sufficient probable cause to conduct "a raid of NOP". That should necessarily be a higher burden to meet than making a BBC documentary, or a complaint to your local ADO, or allegations in a running forum. While it is very easy to sway the opinions of the masses, I don't think a judge would grant USADA a warrant to "raid" the NOP, based on stories of abusing prescription drugs not considered doping by WADA, or stories of doping experiments not conducted on athletes subject to WADA. Regarding Alberto instructing his athletes to lie to USADA, here is what I learned about it from letsrun.com's writeup: "he was not instructing them to lie as a message board headline said".
casual obsever wrote:
Disagreed. I didn't expect anything from such toothless investigation; USADA literally had to beg the team to handover the evidence, and please to not lie.
As we know, not even the whistleblowers were ready to admit to any wrongdoing, and Salazar openly told his active athletes to lie to USADA (didn't that one come out because Tara broke down in tears?).
We'd need to criminalize doping if we want change, such as a raid of NOP. That will never happen because of baseball/basketball/football.
And let's not forget we are talking about USADA here. They love to let us get away with doping, see e.g. Wilson and Roberts, and yes, Armstrong before his retirement. (Armstrong was only caught because of the FEDs and witnesses, not because USADA caught him.)
So, I expect at most a 6 - 12 month ban for Magness (2011/2, so he'll have to return his medal from his turkey trot), and a stern scolding of Salazar for experimenting with testo and too large injections and legal drugs.
These justifications seem to miss the point. What chilling message are you sending to all athletes, if you always shoot the messengers? If insider athletes like Kara/Adam are personally better off remaining silent, with no damage to their reputation, this only seems to make the anti-doping problem worse, and prolongs the solution, because of the chilling effect preventing USADA (or any other ADO) access to inside information they would otherwise not get. In the case of 1) "no wrong-doing by NOP": - It doesn't become defamation unless the statements are made publicly, such as a BBC documentary, Propublica piece, or post-race interviews. Athletes should be encouraged to come forward to USADA, or other relevant ADO, and let the investigations be handled in a correct and discrete manner, ensuring fairness to anyone who may be falsely accused. Athletes (and experts) should be discouraged from going to the public with premature statements that can cause great irreparable reputational damage. - I wouldn't stop at Kara and Adam. If you want to talk about who would be guilty of "defamation", in this case (of no actual wrong-doing) I would cast a much wider net, which includes the reporters, and even many so-called "fans" of the sport, who continue to propagate these unfounded allegations of wrong-doing. In the case of 2) "they need to confess to drug use" - The main allegation seems to concern drugs that are not considered doping by WADA. Kara told us last year, she gave absolutely everything to USADA -- including medical reports, and she's able to sleep at night. I think we can ignore any wild theories about affairs, as 1) something that doesn't concern USADA, WADA, or the public, 2) something that is not banned or otherwise illegal, and 3) desperate clutching at straws, because there is not enough facts to talk about doping.
tjhajshgdsh wrote:
>1) If the NOP "wrong-doing" wasn't in fact wrong, then the Gouchers also did not participate in anything wrong at the NOP
In which case they are merely defaming the coach and teamates who made Kara's entire career.
>2) If the goal is to "clean up" the sport, we should encourage athletes and staff, with access to inside information, to step forward
In which case, they need to confess to drug use and Kara needs to hand back that medal, until then, here's some vague implications of wrong doing that we think we can get away with, without implicating ourselves.
So in either scenario, the Gouchers are guilty of something, whereas Salazaar has innocent until proven guilty working for him, and we can't even rule out that the Goucher sour grapes are really about an affair between Salazaar and Kara.
rekrunner wrote:
These justifications seem to miss the point. What chilling message are you sending to all athletes, if you always shoot the messengers? If insider athletes like Kara/Adam are personally better off remaining silent, with no damage to their reputation, this only seems to make the anti-doping problem worse, and prolongs the solution, because of the chilling effect preventing USADA (or any other ADO) access to inside information they would otherwise not get.
In the case of 1) "no wrong-doing by NOP":
- It doesn't become defamation unless the statements are made publicly, such as a BBC documentary, Propublica piece, or post-race interviews. Athletes should be encouraged to come forward to USADA, or other relevant ADO, and let the investigations be handled in a correct and discrete manner, ensuring fairness to anyone who may be falsely accused. Athletes (and experts) should be discouraged from going to the public with premature statements that can cause great irreparable reputational damage.
- I wouldn't stop at Kara and Adam. If you want to talk about who would be guilty of "defamation", in this case (of no actual wrong-doing) I would cast a much wider net, which includes the reporters, and even many so-called "fans" of the sport, who continue to propagate these unfounded allegations of wrong-doing.
In the case of 2) "they need to confess to drug use"
- The main allegation seems to concern drugs that are not considered doping by WADA. Kara told us last year, she gave absolutely everything to USADA -- including medical reports, and she's able to sleep at night.
I think we can ignore any wild theories about affairs, as 1) something that doesn't concern USADA, WADA, or the public, 2) something that is not banned or otherwise illegal, and 3) desperate clutching at straws, because there is not enough facts to talk about doping.
tjhajshgdsh wrote:
>1) If the NOP "wrong-doing" wasn't in fact wrong, then the Gouchers also did not participate in anything wrong at the NOP
In which case they are merely defaming the coach and teamates who made Kara's entire career.
>2) If the goal is to "clean up" the sport, we should encourage athletes and staff, with access to inside information, to step forward
In which case, they need to confess to drug use and Kara needs to hand back that medal, until then, here's some vague implications of wrong doing that we think we can get away with, without implicating ourselves.
So in either scenario, the Gouchers are guilty of something, whereas Salazaar has innocent until proven guilty working for him, and we can't even rule out that the Goucher sour grapes are really about an affair between Salazaar and Kara.
In order to be considered a messenger, you have to have a message. That is, something of substantiation.
No disagreement there -- if they have no message, that is even one less reason to shoot.
Bullet_Proof wrote:
In order to be considered a messenger, you have to have a message. That is, something of substantiation.
shocking wrote:
Somebody from SMTC downplaying doping...who would ever have thought it?
OLD SMTC SOB wrote:
I think he's delusional, has taken on his wife's "holier than thou" and "poor me, I'm being persecuted" characteristics it would appear. I have no idea what went on between Saladbar and the Gouchers, but it seems like they have an ax to grind. Regardless of the outcome, if there is in fact any (one has to wonder after 4 years), they will likely not be satisfied with it.
Are you pointing fingers at anyone in particular?
not really Flagpole but I play him on TV wrote:
tartarm wrote:Unfortunately him and Kara have been saying this for about three years now
USADA is coming...
The clowns are done.
I was thinking the same thing.
SMTC, Athletics West, Sprint Capitol Yes, I am poonting a finger directly at you. When you consistently come on here and dismiss and downplay doping then all readers need to carefully consider that you were part of one of the largest training groups/drug rins in U. S. track and field history.
OLD SMTC SOB wrote:
shocking wrote:
Somebody from SMTC downplaying doping...who would ever have thought it?
Are you pointing fingers at anyone in particular?
rekrunner wrote:
I don't understand this "fan" backlash against the Gouchers, for two different reasons:
1) If the NOP "wrong-doing" wasn't in fact wrong, then the Gouchers also did not participate in anything wrong at the NOP
2) If the goal is to "clean up" the sport, we should encourage athletes and staff, with access to inside information, to step forward
Exactly Casual, while Kara comes off as an emotional person. She did do us a vital service at the very least, showing us how far some are still willing to go to blur the rules. I actually have respect for people like Tyler Hamilton who come out and say 'look I cheated and this is what we are up to.' Also what I've learnt over the years in t&f if people appear to blur the rules, in reality they're already three miles past what is ethical.
Google is your friend (maybe). wrote:
Rein, LLP wrote:
****Adam and Kara Goucher****
What was your last name, Chad? And where are you from in Colorado?
Take your pick:
https://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&lr=&newwindow=1&as_qdr=all&ei=nvsBXNe4C9DorQHD3a_gBA&q=chad+runner+colorado&oq=chad+runner+colorado&gs_l=psy-ab.12...231080.231080..234096...0.0..0.1089.1089.7-1......0....1..gws-wiz._IVTpdwCrkU
not me
m!ndweak wrote:
not me
which ones? there's a few mentioned
rekrunner wrote:
I think we can ignore any wild theories about affairs, as 1) something that doesn't concern USADA, WADA, or the public, 2) something that is not banned or otherwise illegal, and 3) desperate clutching at straws, because there is not enough facts to talk about doping.
Wrong, ever heard of motive and revenge.
Whistle Blowers must be sure , someone on the other end is interested in the whistling. Everyone knows this going nowhere.
Shocking wrote:
SMTC, Athletics West, Sprint Capitol
Yes, I am poonting a finger directly at you.
When you consistently come on here and dismiss and downplay doping then all readers need to carefully consider that you were part of one of the largest training groups/drug rins in U. S. track and field history.
OLD SMTC SOB wrote:
Are you pointing fingers at anyone in particular?
No I meant any runners in particular that you have evidence that doped. Documented evidence.