I was gonna reply to him, but you already did.
Nobody is hating on Kipchoge. When there is a debate about who's the greatest, you have to compare small details.
This is similar to people saying Mo Farah is the greatest track runner just because he won so many races ... or ... in the NBA, some think Lebron is greater than Bill Russel, Kareem and MJ.
People are prisoners of the moment. At the same time, older people have trouble letting go of the past.
Bekele can toss my salad wrote:
Banana Bread wrote:
I'm mostly looking forward to Amsterdam
I’m literally expecting bekele to literally drop out with another lame excuse - literally
Your not Bekele
dude what wrote:
Which people? Average Joes? Again, if you believe that those 5-6 min PRs are just because of those shoes, then Nike has done a FANTASTIC job at marketing them.
I think Nike has done an amazing job instilling belief in people that they will be 4% more efficient and can run faster, which in turn makes people able. Since this is a Kipchoge related thread, read anything about the guy... belief is everything to him. He never mentions his shoes, strangely enough, considering the Vaporfly came to be largely due to him.
I tend to think anyone who can suddenly shave five minutes off their marathon by switching shoes, has room for improvement and could probably take many more minutes off if their heads were in the right mindset.
So far, there aren't any elites taking five minutes off their times. I think the only long distance WRs that have been broken since the Vaporfly went on sale in 2017 were on the women's side, in the marathon and the half, in Adidas. So far, the Skechers MebSpeed3 has a faster winning time in Boston than the Vaporfly.
Okay, now switching over to Tirunesh.
She appears to have changed her running tactics. Tirunesh has always been a sit and kicker, or second half runner. She broke the 5000m WR by running an insane second half split.
However, as of late, she has been going out super fast. She tried to go out with Mary in London, and not only did she get dropped, but she DNF'd. Before, I had never seen Dibaba quit in a race, and she wasn't sick or injured ( not to my knowledge).
She is going to do the same thing in Berlin. Her plan is to go out at WR pace. She is eyeing Paula's record. Now, I always mention that, in some situations, an elite runner has to run dumb in order to break the WR. Just put the body out there, and push to really go after it.
But can Dibaba really pull it off?
Her sister runs like that all the time, because that her mind state. However, with Tirunesh, I think it would make more sense for her to just run an insane second half split, because that is her style. She was really gaining on Mary in 2017 in the second half of that race. She was pouring it on even after having stomach trouble, and she finished with a 2:17 time. Why not repeat that same method?
I'm a huge fan, but I fear this could be a repeat of this year's london race. And the other women, more than likely, are going to sit back hoping that Dibaba blows up.
the men's and women's race will definitely be full of suspense.
Good points, musclessfitness.
When we debate Mo Farah vs Bekele for long distance track GOAT, it's the same debate. Mo (like Kipchoge) was on an incredible streak of wins. Then why do we still debate Bekele? Because Mo doesn't have the world record.
Same reason we debate Kipchoge. No WR.
As for Khannouchi and Geb, both 2x WR holders, yes it is actually true: they were considered the GOAT at the time they were 2xWR holders
Khannouchi considered the marathon GOAT in 2002 and Geb in 2008.
If Kipsang becomes a 2xWR, he could surpass Kichoge/Geb the same way Geb surpassed Khannouchi/Tergat in the GOAT discussion.
But I agree, WR isn't the end all be all: look at Kimetto. Nowhere near the resume of other GOATs, even with the WR.
Which is why the resumes of Kipsang and Kipchoge are so ideal for debate: Kipsang is no slouch, being the only 4X 2:03 runner. Winning 10 marathons, 13 top-2 finishes. Course records 5X, world record 1X (over Kipchoge).
There’s no chance of her going under 2:15:25, sorry! I just can’t see her doing a negative split and she isn’t going to go through halfway below 67:30.
Not sure if anyone has talked about the weather, but...
Accuweather for Berlin on Sunday morning is calling for temps starting off in the mid-to upper 50's and rising into the low 60's. Dew Point showing around 50 and dropping. Winds pretty negligible at around 3-5MPH SW/SSW . Those seem like pretty good conditions. Not the greatest, I think I'd take a temp in the mid-to upper 40's, but they look pretty darn good. I think if Kipchoge is in shape, he's gonna break the WR. I don't have any faith in Dibaba breaking it. She went out hard in London and absolutely crumbled. That was her last marathon, correct? So that's gonna still be pretty fresh in her mind.
Weather Man wrote:
I don't have any faith in Dibaba breaking it. She went out hard in London and absolutely crumbled. That was her last marathon, correct? So that's gonna still be pretty fresh in her mind.
But it was hot in London, right? I more look at the fact that no female has been all that close to 2:15. On the men's side, you have a few guys (in general) within 20 seconds of the WR. On the women's side.. what.. two minutes off currently? That's a big jump. But you never know.
Question about temperature:
In the article, it cites among the confluence of factors that produced Kimetto’s WR the good temperature: 68F
Yet it later states that Kipchoge missed it in London because it was too hot: 71F
How can 3 degrees Fahrenheit be the difference between great for a WR and too hot to allow it? Seems like a double standard
While I certainly think 50s-60s by finish time are ideal, I always felt the hubbub about London being too hot for a WR were overblown (3F from Kimetto’s finish temp!).
Immature/overzealous speeds in the first 5K on the other hand...
Burnsy I was wondering that same thing when I read it. 68F cant be ideal if 71F is too hot.
pnjfoley wrote:
Burnsy I was wondering that same thing when I read it. 68F cant be ideal if 71F is too hot.
It was the "13:48 first 5k, 61:00 first half" in the beginning of a hot day that did it.
Which is impressive since 2013 London had a hard first half at the time, and no one broke 2:06 on a gorgeous day. The fact Kipchoge ran 61:00, and then held on for a 2:04 in 71F is incredible.
I completely agree. Even if the conditions are as good as they are predicting, I really hope they keep the desired 1st half pace around 61:10-61:20'ish. Running as hard as they did in the first 10k in London was just really dumb. The race is a marathon. You need to keep your energy usage level, spread it out across the entire distance, exactly like they tried to do during Breaking2. That way you have a better chance of keeping your effort below lactate threshold, under the red line. Go over that, even if it's during the first 5k, you're gonna flood your body with lactate (levels go up exponentially above your LT). That's why they were constantly checking the guys' lactate levels leading up to Breaking2. You can only hold LT pace for apprx 1hr, so you better not be running above that for very long during the first part of the race, save it for the later stages and hope you have enough energy to push through in the end.
D.Katz wrote:
The three greatest performance in the marathon I have ever seen (2 in person)
1. Benoit winning the Olympics 1984
2. Mutai's 2:05 in NY
3. Eluid's 2:00:25
I measured 2 of the 3. two top measures did NY that year.
Sammy Wanjiru's 2:06:32 at Beijing in 2008 belongs as 2 or 3. Remember that that race was high temperature and humidity.
Sammy W wrote:
D.Katz wrote:
The three greatest performance in the marathon I have ever seen (2 in person)
1. Benoit winning the Olympics 1984
2. Mutai's 2:05 in NY
3. Eluid's 2:00:25
I measured 2 of the 3. two top measures did NY that year.
Sammy Wanjiru's 2:06:32 at Beijing in 2008 belongs as 2 or 3. Remember that that race was high temperature and humidity.
Mary K's WR run was the greatest for me, and Kipkurui providing her with excellent pacing was just a thing of beauty. That run was a masterpiece. She went hard and strong.
Burnsy wrote:
Question about temperature:
In the article, it cites among the confluence of factors that produced Kimetto’s WR the good temperature: 68F
Yet it later states that Kipchoge missed it in London because it was too hot: 71F
Kenyans are very specific when it comes to ideal temperatures. It will be 75deg outside in Iten and they're all covered up with jackets and long pants. Beanies and gloves in the AM when it's even cooler out. And unlike westerners, they generally don't travel to train in climates similar to their goal races. All of their training is done in Iten or Eldoret area.. that's pretty much it. So if it's 85deg out, it's too hot. If it's 40deg out, it's way too cold. ex Boston 2018, or Berlin last year. Bet you anything Kipsang was freezing and miserable out there and just decided he had enough.
If I had to guess, I'd say mid 50s to mid 60s would be ideal.. which is pretty much the temperature in Iten year around at 6:30am when everyone trains.
Scorpion_runner wrote:
Sammy W wrote:
Sammy Wanjiru's 2:06:32 at Beijing in 2008 belongs as 2 or 3. Remember that that race was high temperature and humidity.
Mary K's WR run was the greatest for me, and Kipkurui providing her with excellent pacing was just a thing of beauty. That run was a masterpiece. She went hard and strong.
Some people talk about runner X or runner Y liking to sit and kick, and complain how few are willing to front run.
Mary K is willing to put it all on the line from early on; she's been willing to race like that for years.
nameee:
I agree with the couple of points you said. However, you have to add Geoffrey Mutai and maybe the smallest and most consistent runner Tsegaye Kebede. I would consider Samuel Wanjiru as well since he has a couple of records and he did not lose a single marathon or half marathon.
scorpion_runner:
I don't like the Dibaba family since I'm 99.9% sure they're doping. Genzebe was always going for records because that's how arrogant dopers are.
Anyways, I think she can run 2:16 on a good day, but Paula's record is gonna safe for a couple\few more years.
Burnsy:
I think the weather was a bit humid in London, which makes a big difference.
Although it was relatively hot in London, Kitata and Vivian improved their PBs, so ... I don't believe the temperature will affect Kipchoge and Kipsang this Sunday since Kenyans are used to that kinda weather in their country.
Does anyone here know where I can watch the race from the UK? Is it streamed online for free anywhere?
Banana Bread wrote:
Bekele can toss my salad wrote:
I’m literally expecting bekele to literally drop out with another lame excuse - literally
Your not Bekele
*YOU'RE borderline illiterate. How can you not realize this and want to correct it?