Minimalist, what was your experience?

trackhead, you can't just assume that there is more braking force going on based on foot placement. A real description on braking forces can only be made by using a force platform. A classic study by Cavanagh and some UC Davis guys (International Journal of Sports Medicine. 8:107-118, 1987, 1987) compared elite vs recreational female runners. Not surprisingly, the elite women were, as a group more forefoot strikers, and the controls were heel strikers at the same speed. However, braking forces were actually greater in the elite vs. the control runners. The elites were tested in both trainers and flats, and there were few if any differences related to shoe type. The lessons are how strong is the connection between where you land on the foot (the Strike Index) and braking force, and how important are braking forces in performance?

There's no need to get injured but it's certainly very easy to do it -- as an extreme example, imagine using a wheelchair from birth and then trying to walk and run right away.

It seems that it takes right on 3 mos. for someone to fully transition into a flat, and they cannot expect to do their normal training volume when making the switch, or, you can try to introduce it very very slowly.

1) Time spent running in spikes versus time spent in trainers

2) In all my time in trainers, I never had a training related injury. I had a hamstring tear, but that was completely unrelated. I trained all the time in regualr shoes and raced in spikes, and decided to make the move because long races in xc shoes were making my calves and soleus uncomfortably tight and I had difficulty getting up on my toes to kick. Jorge Torres said the same thing about his NCAA xc title.

3)Why don't you believe that you would gain efficiency from running in a thinner midsole? You've got tons of proceptors in your feet that are designed to take input from the ground and make minute adjestments in the foot to varying surfaces. These turn off eventually because of the lack of response from the insulation of standard midsoles.

4) How does running in a high heel make sense? Why train in a different shoe than you race in?

I realize that every one's experience is different, and there are lots of runners who can train in one shoe and race in another without too many problems, but there are many who cannot, and I would argue that if we're going to maximize our potential on all fronts, that we should train in our racing shoes 100% of the time.

JY,

To your point of efficiency in varying footwear:

If you take a runner such as El Guerrouj, incredibly efficient and as elite as you can get, and put him in his Pegasus for a 10mi jog (as he does), he's probably not going to lose much efficiency for a few reasons:

-techniques that were set in early development years

-wearing a road flat/track spike for race specific work

-lots and lots of drills (for El Guerrouj and others, about 6mi daily).

Where I would say he loses out is a high risk of injury.

elflord,

Trackhead has raised many important issues realative to shoes and he should be commended for that. You, however, have taken it a step further and provided very cogent balance and reason to this contentious topic. I think I generally follow your protocol in that I do some work in flats and most work in lower heeled trainers. My foot and leg health has been fine this way, and to change over to racing flats exclusively would be foolish in my view. Until science addresses this topic further the verdict remains one of opinion over proof.

trackhead wrote:

JY,

See my example of the belly flop: running doesn't need to be synonymous with pounding -- insulation is not a necessity IF:

technique is good

the strength is there

If you had seen me a few years ago when I ran in the 2070 and put me in my H Streets I wouldn't have finished a 30min run.......

I'm curious to hear your responses. And I should add that I appreciate this discussion, and I don't want this turned into a pissing contest.......

trackhead, actually, I did see you a few years ago. Unless I have you confused with someone else from Hoy's I think you used to keep me in Supernovas. And no, I have no interest in a pissing match, I'm just trying to bring my own perspective into this discussion, that of someone who both knows something about biomechanics and someone who has feet that could never handle a shoe like the 900, no matter what sort of adaptive gait I tried to develop.

However, by no means am I on the opposite side of an argument from you, unless you're advocating that everyone should try the same approach to footwear. As I've said before, since nearly everyone will be racing in flats (or spikes) they need to be doing some amount of their training in these shoes. However, the amount that they can handle will be subject to individual variability. Your gait can adapt to make better use of the inherent shock absorption characteristics of the feet, but there is little that can be done to imapart the benefits of cushioned midsoles. I would say that running IS pounding, there is no way to argue against that. The only question is whether it's more pounding than an individual can handle, or if the cushioning of trainers or even flats is overkill for an individual, than they can get by with less. However, the same will not be true for every runner.

Again, I think that everyone needs to know their feet. Sometimes the only way to figure out what will work is to experiment. I know that the last thing my feet need is a shoe that restricts movement. However, at the same time I need a good amount of forefoot cushioning. Rearfoot cushioning is wasted on me. I could go to a minimalist trainer, but what would that do, train me to utilize a forefoot landing approach? I already have it. Fortunately, not everyone is like me. I wouldn't advise anyone to use me as an example when selecting footear. I only offer it here as an example of the fact that individual variances will limit the ability of you to apply your new shoe philosophy to everyone.

Since I would never try to convince someone who has shown that they can get by with less shoe to step up to a more overly costructed shoe I don't think I am arguing against your general approach. However, I don't know if I would be advocating the use of some of these shoes in an internet forum where, unlike a retail environment where you have direct contact with the customer, there are probably folks who will try these shoes because they think they will work for everyone.

elflord,

As far Yessis, I know that his article is strictly observational, but I still think there is some unofficial merit in them.

As far as hunter/gathers, I don't know that 2hrs of running per day is all that wasteful, considering that once those duties are accomplished, there is lots of recovery time available. I recall Haile G. and mother walking 3hrs to and fro to fetch water in Endurance.

I think you do have me confused for someone else from Hoy's. When did you frequent the store?

that aside...

I agree in terms of experimentation and taking this very slowly. I don't think, however, that running is the same for everyone. I've had some marines that I've worked with who had terrible shin splits for years, and I watched them run and they were slamming into the ground, as if they were triple jumping the entire way. I should them a more efficient technique, shin plints vanished.

JY, have you tried the Free? 20/12mm profile, very unrestrictive and quality material?

and I wasn't refering to your posts about the pissing match -- some people can get fairly defensive and close minded on either side of the fence.

Dylan Moffat wrote:

First off, who are all the people getting metatarsal fractures, other than myself that have posted here?

I got a metatarsal stress fracture eight weeks after switching to exclusive running in flats. I blame the flats.

If you do "transition" - listen to your body & tranisition slowly.

Johnston

ps - There is no all purpose shoe. I switch between Nike Milers &Pegs, & NB 900s and do fast workouts in my NB 950s and spikes.

trackhead wrote:

I think you do have me confused for someone else from Hoy's. When did you frequent the store?

that aside...

JY, have you tried the Free? 20/12mm profile, very unrestrictive and quality material?

I went there for years, right up until it closed. I am actually a friend of Mary's. Toward the end I really thought that there was only one guy in there who was really a runner and the rest were just local kids who didn't give a shit. If I don't have a video of you running against an NFL lineman as part of the SF marathon coverage one year than I'm thinking of someone else.

As for the Free, I have not tried it, but would be open to it. I like to have different shoes to rotate through, some with orthotics, some flats worn without. I think it's a valid question as to whether one really requires ALL their training to be in minimal shoes in order to avoid all these negative adaptations that you claim result from running in trainers. After all, as long as you are supplying the stimulus for more range of motion etc. a couple of times a week, I doubt that the extensive remodeling you are talking about would be occuring.

Elflord:

See my posts on evidence against the utility of flats on other threads.

There is ZERO good evidence that training in flats is good for you, though much evidence that cushioned shoes are.

Not wasting effort on this anymore. Sorry you got hurt.

Johnston

I haven't seen Mary since June 2003 when she took off. Tell her Matt from 2002-2003 says hi. How is she doing? I worked there right up to the end, and I was (and am) a real runner, although far more educated now than when I worked there.

And you are thinking of someone else -- I'm not sure who, but not me.

I haven't actually seen her since she had a baby, but her family are my neighbors. If/when I see her I'll pass it on.

I was thinking of Dave. My running was sporadic when you worked there, so I might not have been in that often. I don't remember if I met you or not. I'm glad you found a good opportunity when it went under.

Actually I have worked at a running specialty shop for the last 4 years and have been competing in track and field competively since highschool almost 14 years ago now. I have personal bests of 3.39.12/3.59.81/14.13.68/30.34 I do think I have a pretty good running background to be able to weigh in on the topics discussed here. I do understand many people are skeptical of training in minimalistic shoes. Six months ago I would have told you that your are crazy if you had told me that I could run in racing flats for 80miles a week. But after looking at all of the benefits one gets from wearing less shoe it was a no brainer.

I just got back from a 10mile run on the roads in my Streak xc and my feet loved every minute of it. There are so many variables that effect whether or not someone gets injured. Over the last 20 to 30 years we have convinced ourselves that we need more shoe to help prevent injuries, when in actually the more shoe you put on your foot the more you encourage injury. You only need a basic understanding of biomechanics to understand why this so.

People that get injured often need something to blame it on and since it is not easy to figure out the cause of an injury you either realize you have a biomechanical issue and you fix or you blame it on the shoe. Do you have anything to add to the topic that could be of benefit to others?

Wow -- she had a baby -- I remember she was going through fertility treatment when I was working for her and by 2003 she had decided that it wasn't to be. Very funny to work for.

Dave managed Hoy's for aobut 6 years and left in July 2002 to go back and finish college. I haven't seen him since, although I was told that he had stopped by a few times.

I was the only one working (besides Saundra and family) after June 12, 2003. My last day there was August 9 and I was told there was no more money to pay me so I worked the day for a pair of blue and gold Kennedys.

Slow down there JY, if someone is inherently efficient such as El G why do you think he needs the cushioning of a the Pegasus?

Johnston,

Its good to hear from you again. I am still curious as to why you blame the shoe for your overuse running injury?

Why would it be so foolish? Are you one of the only people on earth that was born with shoes on?

Why can't you continue in the debate? Do you think maybe we might change your mind? There are more human studies done which back up the evidence out there to support the minimilist approach to walking or running!