Mary Cain is Officially DONE

Clear view wrote:

Cain's lackluster performance suggests over-training. The workout-after-races routine is a grind and probably doesn't work for everyone. Hopefully, Salazar will ease off a bit on her training and refrain from making performance predictions which puts added pressure on his athletes.

Is this really going to get her back to 4:04/4:05 shape soon? She isn't even in the same universe right now. Everyone hopes she will run fast again, But, this is def trouble time[/quote]

Over-training can be a major problem if it pushes someone into a state of chronic fatigue. That, in turn, can lead to over-eating as the athlete tries to restore normal energy levels. Cain appears to have gained weight since last season. The open availability of dorm food can be an issue. It was for me.

Don't overthink it and don't over-fret.

I'm a lame middle-aged male runner, but had PRs fairly close to Cain's for 1500-3000 (slower than her at 800, but faster at 5K). Early season I'd be running in the 4:15 1500/4:35 mile range and mid season would drop about 8 sec, and late another 2 sec. If she ends up with a 4:13 best for the season, then something to wonder about. But not so much now. Let the season unfold and see what happens you bunch of slobbering hyenas.

Clear view wrote:

Clear view wrote:

Cain's lackluster performance suggests over-training. The workout-after-races routine is a grind and probably doesn't work for everyone. Hopefully, Salazar will ease off a bit on her training and refrain from making performance predictions which puts added pressure on his athletes.

Is this really going to get her back to 4:04/4:05 shape soon? She isn't even in the same universe right now. Everyone hopes she will run fast again, But, this is def trouble time

Over-training can be a major problem if it pushes someone into a state of chronic fatigue. That, in turn, can lead to over-eating as the athlete tries to restore normal energy levels. Cain appears to have gained weight since last season. The open availability of dorm food can be an issue. It was for me.[/quote]

the reason I think this is more mental than physical is that I don't think Salazar would race her if she was in only 4:16 shape. If she were truly doing workouts that indicated only that kind of fitness...what's the point of putting her in fast races?

My guess is that she is doing decent workouts but flaming out at races. Which is a hard nut to crack - I'm hoping she figures it out. Hike the PCT, whatever it takes.

If we are talking about relatively small differences in age, the academic age is significantly more important than the calendar age for these reasons, ukathleticscoach:

1) the academic age determines who your peer group is,

2) what age cohort you are socialized with,

3) how you are treated,

4) what expectations are given to you, and

5) how independent you are allowed or forced to be.

You might want to recall that when Cain was at her best, she was "underperforming" in workouts. Salazar used to say that if you looked at her workouts, you would have no idea that she could run those race times. Now that he thinks her workouts indicate faster times than she is racing, she is likely overtrained. The reason she can't handle the training right now, if that's the case, is probably the reasons mentioned above, physical and social changes that take a few years to get used to for some people. Remember that the distance running itself delays the physical changes for upper level young female distance runners, in contrast to upper level 400-800m runners with low mileage training.

geegol wrote:

Don't overthink it and don't over-fret.

I'm a lame middle-aged male runner, but had PRs fairly close to Cain's for 1500-3000 (slower than her at 800, but faster at 5K). Early season I'd be running in the 4:15 1500/4:35 mile range and mid season would drop about 8 sec, and late another 2 sec. If she ends up with a 4:13 best for the season, then something to wonder about. But not so much now. Let the season unfold and see what happens you bunch of slobbering hyenas.

I see what you are saying. But comparing you and Mary Cain is two completely things.

Apples and Oranges my friend

jjjjj wrote:

You might want to recall that when Cain was at her best, she was "underperforming" in workouts. Salazar used to say that if you looked at her workouts, you would have no idea that she could run those race times. Now that he thinks her workouts indicate faster times than she is racing, she is likely overtrained. The reason she can't handle the training right now, if that's the case, is probably the reasons mentioned above, physical and social changes that take a few years to get used to for some people. Remember that the distance running itself delays the physical changes for upper level young female distance runners, in contrast to upper level 400-800m runners with low mileage training.

Let's also recall that a lot of runners don't do well under Salazar. Rupp is the only athlete that he has truly developed. A lot of his athletes have gone backwards and just dropped out.

Clear view wrote:

Cain appears to have gained weight since last season. The open availability of dorm food can be an issue. It was for me.

Too much sausage.

jjjjj wrote:

If we are talking about relatively small differences in age, the academic age is significantly more important than the calendar age for these reasons, ukathleticscoach:

1) the academic age determines who your peer group is,

2) what age cohort you are socialized with,

3) how you are treated,

4) what expectations are given to you, and

5) how independent you are allowed or forced to be.

Garbage. Personal attack. Now get back to changing your user name instead of absorbing my wisdom.

When you say "officially" you mean "in my unqualified opinion" right?

truthsayer wrote:

. If I don't perform up to standards at work, you best believe I'm getting criticized--same as everybody else.

Says the unemployed basement-dweller.

ukatIeticscoach wrote:

jjjjj wrote:

If we are talking about relatively small differences in age, the academic age is significantly more important than the calendar age for these reasons, ukathleticscoach:

1) the academic age determines who your peer group is,

2) what age cohort you are socialized with,

3) how you are treated,

4) what expectations are given to you, and

5) how independent you are allowed or forced to be.

Garbage. Personal attack. Now get back to changing your user name instead of absorbing my wisdom.

Uk, you do know that I've been posting under this and only this handle, give or take a few letters, for probably a decade, right?

Actually, Salazar has developed Cam Levins, Mo Farah, Centro, Ritz, and Shannon Rowbury, as well as Rupp. Rowbury had never run sub 2, 4, 8:30, 15, and she broke 4, 8:30 and 14:50 in her first season with Salazar. Ritz had never broken 2:10 or 13:10 and he ran 12:56 AR, 27:22 pr, and 59:59.5 (60:00) HM pr and world half bronze his first season with Salazar, as well as a subsequent 2:07:47 (during yet another injury-plagued stint). Rupp developed to 13:37 as a junior and 3:50i/7:30i/12:58/26:44 AR and a silver medal at 10000m in the Olympics. Mo Farah had improved with some advice of Canova and another coach when he came to Salazar but subsequently became the best 5000m/10000m man in the world from 2011-14, with five gold medals and a silver at worlds's and olympics. Centro had won bronze at World's after his final season of college when he came to Salazar, and he subsequently took fourth in the Olympics, another World medal, and pr's at 800m, 1500m (3:31.06), mile (3:50), and 5000m (13:20). Levins has run pr's of 3:54/8:15/13:15 or thereabouts. So, it is simply not the case that Salazar has not developed athletes (he also got a late career resurgence from Treniere Moser, as well as a host of hs and junior records for Cain, though those might have arrived anyway).

Two years after high school I had no new PRs. The next year was amazing: PRs from 800 to 5000m. It happens. And it's not like she is 36 years old.

right on the money wrote:

Too much sausage.

Seriously... This is dead on.

jjjjj wrote:

Actually, Salazar has developed Cam Levins, Mo Farah, Centro, Ritz, and Shannon Rowbury, as well as Rupp..

I don't think he developed Ritz, he gave Ritz a change in scenery and a pep talk. That 5k AR came off of his marathon training, not anything Salazar did. Rowbury is a seasoned professional and she was going to break those time barriers with or without Salazar. Farah...I guess Salazar told him to hit the weight room. But Farah spends a lot of time away outside the USA so its hard to give Salazar full credit. I'll give you Levins.

All those examples, outside of Rupp, were immensely successful athletes with world class times and experiences who walked onto the Nike Campus and got a quick change of stimulus thst vaulted them to the next level.

First, that isn't development. Cook developed Rowbury, Levins developed himself on 150mpw, Wetmore/Hudson for Ritz, Vin for Centro, and Farah was into his late 20s when Sal got his hands on him so who knows how many hands were on him before Al got in. Those are developed products that needed tuning. Development isn't taking a 13:10 guy and making him a 12:55 guy; it's taking an 8:41 3200m runner and turning him into a 27:38 guy.

Are we suggesting Mosier was developed by Al too? Just because she's PRd since working with him while in her 30s?

Second, most often ANY dramatic change (and some of Als training is dramatic) will illicit a positive response when you've done the same or similar things for so long. Ritz was the most obvious, and Al has credited Hudson for Ritz's performances. But they all have that part of the story for him. Rupp the exception again.

When talking about his development of Mary Cain, true development from almost the ground up, he isn't the most experienced coached. Which is a huge part of the argument for her going to the NCAA that probably wasn't discussed enough. The NCAA has coaches who basically specialize in development, not coaches who take well developed work class talent and try to put the finishing touches on it.

I don't think Cain is done, and I think Al can develop her, he's a very smart guy, but let's not pretend that he's a talent development guru who does this for a living.

And let's not dismiss the reality that her going pro means she doesn't have the time to be developed long term, she needs to be ready now. Al has to balance what's best for her in ten years with keeping her prepared for 10 weeks.

Any pro runners lurking? Would you confirm that the transition to the professional ranks is easy, and that Mary Cain is one of the few to experience difficulty?

FACT: Lots of female mid-distance prodigies flame out. They tease us at Foot Locker; they post amazing PBs, and then they just disappear, never coming close to those times again. .

FACT: Some female mid-distance prodigies do eventually deliver on their early promise.

Am I the only one who remembers Jenny Simposn's early career? In 2008, she made the Olympic team. In 2009, she set a bunch of NCAA records, an American record. And, she PB'ed (by almost 11 seconds!) in the 1500 at Pre, when she was the first American woman to go under 4:00 since SFH in 2002. It looked like she was going to do great things.

That fall, she finished 163d at the NCAA XC championships. She never ran that poorly again, BUT she also didn't PB again until 2014. That's FIVE years. And for most of that time, she wasn't even close to her PB.

For those who want to worry, just pull up the Foot Locker list and weep. The rest of you, pull up the women's 1500 from Eugene in 2009. It's a thing of beauty. And after last summer, it really is a promise of things to come.