My challenge: Post Examples of DQs for Actions Similar to Grunewald and Ryan Hill

It would take a lot of effort for me to look for DQ videos, but take my word for it when I say I have seen several DQs for doing what Gabe did. In fact I recall one Olympics or WC where an athlete was asking that another athlete be DQed for clipping. Btw, clipping is the number one cause of falls.

I think you guys think you are taking a principled stand to save the sport.But let's give it a rest now. Lomong is a grown man, so is Schumacher. They can handle a shouting match or whatever it was. People get intense at sporting matches. Don't you guys watch the NFL.

I dont think GG should have been dq'd but she did look pretty reckless out there. I wrote earlier that I have never seen a pro runner run up n twopeople in a row(I know she narrowly avoided Rowbury). The protest was fine. uSATF should look at their process.

Hill did cut off Rupp to control the pace. Sure, maybe not a DQ but you guys are way overselling it. In one breath, you emphasize that he was 1k out so no big deal then you proceed to say Hill was just aggressive to avoid being boxed - 1k from the finish. Make up your mind!

Meanwhile this site engages in endless debate about whether Galen is doping. His 5000 and 1500 PRs are a few seconds faster than those of the younger Schumacher guys who also saw their speed improve as they got older. Solinsky went from13:10 to 12:54 and broke 27 in his debut but no one screams PEDs. To be clear, I like both groups and have no preference. I judt want fast Americans. The bias of this site is pretty hilarious.

Do you mean that Wojo and Rojo are biased or the forum contributors. I'm guessing that many of the anti Sal comments are from the same posters and they are more vocal than the supporters and the lack of communication from NOP is not helping.

I am surprised that there is so much anti-Rupp sentiment because he has repeatedly proven that he is one of the best middle distance runners in the World.

coach d wrote:

This is a famous race that supports your position--the 1997 WC 1500m final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU3aFIlT3go

Better known for the conflict between Sonia O'Sullivan and Regina Jacobs, at 4:00-4:05, see Anita Weyermann forces her way between TWO people (Ewerlof and Jacobs) to create a gap where no gap existed. Weyermann ended up with the bronze.

Salazar and the NOP people are a bunch of wimps. I have to believe that any European posters are laughing at this (the race, not Salazar's performance that followed).

As pointed out earlier, at the 1997 USA outdoors 1500m, Steve Holman was DQd for a similar move.

Also, as someone pointed out, Tom McKean of Great Britain was DQd in the '88 Olympics for pretty much the same thing, so it happens to Europeans as well. Weyermann should have been DQd.

Many people on this board wanted Poistogova DQd for elbowing and taking out Ajee Wilson in the stretch at the last Worlds.

Didn't agree with the GG DQ myself and a case could be made that the USATF rulebook should be more specific regarding factors such as gaining advantage and intent.

bizarro world wrote:

As pointed out earlier, at the 1997 USA outdoors 1500m, Steve Holman was DQd for a similar move.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1997/Officials-disqualify-Holmon-in-1-500-final/id-b4e9463405f43e3ffd3ba6d3daf5a1d2

" Holman again came up short in the big meet, this time disqualified for pushing another competitor in the 1,500 meter finals at the Indiana University track"

"PUSHING"

Did you see GG or Hill push?

This is not similar.

The challenge was to find something S I M I L A R.

We're looking for a heal clip that led to a DQ. And specifically one that didn't cause a fall or change in the race.

By similar I meant similar to Weyermann's actions in the post I was responding to, not similar to GG.

Many people have claimed that GG pushed but I'm not one of them.

However, the question posed at the outset wasn't just about GG; it was also about Hill. And his DQ wasn't a heel clip. It was obstruction.

So there.

The most absurd DQ's I have ever seen involved Jimmy Wyner at the HEPS. Sometimes, the powers that be have wayyy too much control at a track meet.

I think a discussion or challenge whether anyone can come up with an example where athletes should be DQd for what Hill and GG did is pretty low key. Regardless of how the process went down, I was really surprised many of you would actually think someone should get DQd for that. I didn't see either race live this past weekend.

It has nothing to do with whether Lomong is a grown man or Schumacher can handle his own squabbles or Alberto.

What are we overselling? Our article's focus was on how they DQd the wrong person. There is the separate issue as to someone getting DQd for that. It's my impression the meet referee thought Hill intentionally moved in front of Rupp. The reason there is emphasis on the 1k to go was it would make sense an athlete would "intentionally" jump right in front of another athlete at that point. Not to foul them but to prevent getting boxed.

You say the "bias of the site" like we control what people post on here. I would say the site is representative of hard core track and field fans so you might as well say, "The bias of track and field fans."

We let fans talk.

* wrote:

" Holman again came up short in the big meet, this time disqualified for pushing another competitor in the 1,500 meter finals at the Indiana University track"

"PUSHING"

Did you see GG or Hill push?

This is not similar.

The challenge was to find something S I M I L A R.

We're looking for a heal clip that led to a DQ. And specifically one that didn't cause a fall or change in the race.

Whether or not someone fell should be irrelevant. The ACTION here was a heal clip. Just because Hasay managed to keep her balance doesn't make GG's ACTION any different than heal clips that have resulted in falls.

bizarro world wrote:

By similar I meant similar to Weyermann's actions in the post I was responding to, not similar to GG.

Many people have claimed that GG pushed but I'm not one of them.

However, the question posed at the outset wasn't just about GG; it was also about Hill. And his DQ wasn't a heel clip. It was obstruction.

So there.

Hill's DQ still wasn't about a push.

He didn't push or make contact with his hand or arm.

So Hill's DQ was not similar to Holman's.

Truth! wrote:

Whether or not someone fell should be irrelevant. The ACTION here was a heal clip. Just because Hasay managed to keep her balance doesn't make GG's ACTION any different than heal clips that have resulted in falls.

It's totally relevant.

The reason to DQ someone is if their action affected the results.

Wejo uses a some poor examples non-DQs. Upper body contact early in a crowded tactical race tends to get overlooked, but clipping someone's heels at the end of a race when there are open lanes is another matter. As a former official, I would have raised the flag on Gabe as was correctly done, but under the circumstances I would have hoped for the DQ not to be upheld. What Gabe did with a doubt was eligible for a DQ and no certified official will tell you differently.

TrackCoach wrote:

but clipping someone's heels at the end of a race when there are open lanes is another matter.

And this is exactly what Geb did at the 1993 WCs with one lap to go with no one else around.

Except that it was more extreme in that the guy lost a shoe and Geb didn't pass him until the last 20 meters.

The action actually did effect the end result.

Still no DQ. Maybe there should have been.

wejo wrote:

You say the "bias of the site" like we control what people post on here. I would say the site is representative of hard core track and field fans so you might as well say, "The bias of track and field fans."

We let fans talk.

Ajee got ripped by Poistogova. It doesn't get any more blatant and relevant to finishing position than that. She had somewhere between 5th and 3rd in her sights.

http://youtu.be/EatNPB6sVeM?t=2m20s

Oh, what the heck. Another non DQ.

2008 Women's Big Ten Indoors. 600m final, Fawn Dorr of Penn State clips Heather Dorniden of Minnesota who falls hard with 200m to go. Heather gets up and wins the race.

It was a split final and the other heat winner (smoot of indiana) beat her by .13 for the title. Dorr has a time in the official results so she wasn't DQd.

http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php?event_id=1631&do=videos&video_id=7311

The videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70UF82nysIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqnqLrakxY8

"It's my impression the meet referee thought Hill intentionally moved in front of Rupp. The reason there is emphasis on the 1k to go was it would make sense an athlete would 'intentionally' jump right in front of another athlete at that point. Not to foul them but to prevent getting boxed."

This gets to a first year law school discussion of "intent."

Try this:

"I killed my wealthy parents because they were about to disinherit me. Not to commit a crime but to make sure I could pay for my own kids' college education."

If you intend to do the thing you're not supposed to do (like cutting in front of somebody without a safe amount of space) that's the pertinent intent. Not whether your overriding "intent" was to commit a crime/foul.

Please - you guys talk about the need for rivalries so you play this up. You are playing this up and focusing on the controversy like front page articles about Lomong and Schumacher. The sport needs more people going for great times and international medal. Controversy is fine but this is overblownYour thread here is about Hill not Bumbalough. Hill had 1k to get out of a box. He could just go around. He looked over and did deliberately jumped jn front of Rupp. I would let it go as aggressive running but others could reasonably disagree. You are here posting repeatedly about no precedent - you are selling it.As for GG, at first review one could have thought GG ran up on two runners with plenty of space. Protesting that is fine. I dont think she needed to be dq'd but it really was not necessary to run like she did. If USATF DQ'd it's on them. Sure, changing their mind looks more like amateurism than a big Nike conspiracy. I have seen plenty of volunteer or low paid officials screw up.

Serious Hypothetical: Hill gets held up behind a slowing Bumby,Rupp takes the lead with a k to go and either does or doesn't take the kick out of daddy...(statistically/historically there's roughly a 90% chance that the results would have been the same...

Humorous Hypothetical: Bumby's slowdown is so drastic that Hill collides with him, Rupp gets taken into the fray Nascar style and all three go down. Bumby immediately blames his spikes for the trouble, which puts Nike in an awkward position...Rupp comes back the next day in the 1500