Top Ten Greatest High School Runners (Boys)

Ruben falls into the next tier of runners where if I was making a list of all time top 25 guys he would definitely get some love. Not sure who I would displace in the top 10 for him. I also feel bad leaving Stember off these lists. He destroyed those weak 90s fields (years were 4:09 or a 8:57 would lead the nation) with some amazing kicks but a 4:05 isn't quite enough to make the list.The one guy I always feel odd about ranking is Hulst. The guy was a total stud who won a ton of big races. He also lost a lot of races because Hunt and Serna were racing him. I feel the same about hall. That 3:42 normally would get a lot of love but he was clearly the 3rd best guy that year.

AlwaysInjured wrote:

Why hasn't Ruben Reina been mentioned yet? He still holds the Balboa Park course record which has been run on pretty much every year by the best high schoolers in the nation and no one has come all that close to his mark.

Does ed Ches not show up because he's Kenyan or because he's 26? Either way he was still an epically dominant hs runner.

This does not include 800m

1. Jim Ryun

2. Gerry Lindgren

3. Lukas Verzbicas

4. Craig Virgin

5. Edward Cheserek

6. Alan Webb

7. Dathan Ritzenhein

8. German Fernandez

9. Eric Hulst

10. Steve Prefontaine

Marty Liquori

Jeff Nelson

Galen Rupp

Rudy Chapa

Thom Hunt

The top Tier is essentially "The Untouchables". Who were never really beaten fairly in High School. Essentially gods above everyone else. That's the top 4. Cheserek was handled plenty of times in the mile, so you can't really put him in there. He wasn't unbeatable. But he was by far the best long distance guy of the generation.

Your statements about Lindgren are right on, but one thing needs to be added: 8:40.0 indoors for the deuce, on an 11 lap to the mile track at the smoke filled Cow Palace in San Francisco. Also, his 13:44 broke the then existing US record (yes, the big boy record), but Bob Schul ran 13:37 that race. But it also needs to be underscored that as a high school senior Ryun beat the reigning Olympic 1500 champion (Peter Snell).

starmiler wrote:

As great, as phenomenal, as world-shattering as Jim Ryun was in high school, I would have to give the nod to Gerry Lindgren as the greatest high school runner of all time. He was a 4:01 Miler. He won the U.S. Olympic Trial 10K the summer after he graduated from high school, defeating the future Olympic Gold Medalist Billy Mills. He was ninth in the Tokyo final only because he ran on a sprained ankle. His 13:44 5K in high school remained the record for forty years. It takes nothing away from Ryun, arguably the most talented Miler/Metric Miler of all time, to give Gerry the laurels as the greatest schoolboy runner in American history.

Cheserek got beat too many times in high school. LV dominated him. Cheserek never did well in the Dream Mile. Even when he won FL, it's not like he trounced the field. If he ran in CA during the Kimball, Hulst, Serna, Hunt, Nelson era, Cheserek would not have dominated those guys.

To be in top 5, you have to trounce and dominate over time.

In Connecticut circa early 2000's

Brian McGovern, Fairfield prep

Alex Bloom, Guilford

Jeff Roginielewicz, Derby

Owen McKenna, Xavier

Kevin Sullivan should be in there:

At 14 he ran 1:53 for 800m and 3:54.1 for 1500m

In high school he ran 3:41 and 1:47.64 and was undefeated.

How about some of these youth 11th grade 17 and under times:

800m 1:43.37 Mo Oman

1500m 3:33.72 Nicholas Kemboi

Mile 3:54.56 Isaac Songok

3000m 7:32.37 Abreham Cherkos

5000m 12:54.19 Abreham Cherkos

10,000m 27:02.21 Ibrahim Jeylan

These guys all had another year left in high school.

This makes Ryun, Lingren, Webb and Granville look like little girls.

As a side note, Jim Ryun ran sub-4:02 (or its 1500 equivalent) THIRTEEN times while in high school.

Has anyone else done that more than twice?

1. Gerry Lindgren

2. Jim Ryun

3. Rudy Chapa

4. Craig Virgin

5. Alan Webb

6. Eric Hulst

7. Galen Rupp

8. German Fernandez

9. Lucas Verzbicas

10.Dathan Ritzenehin

coach d. wrote:

Ritz did not tie Lindgren's 5000 meter record and his 8:41 was for 3200 meters.

Sorry I considered 13:44.0 and 13:44.7 semantically a tie whilst making a point as to Ritz being better than Webb and Cheserek.

I could care less that his 8:41 was a 3200. It came in an all high school race, unlike LV and Cheserek.

Rueben Rienna was an awesome runner, but his notoriety is pretty much cc. He was a great Texas track guy, but I don't think he's even in the top 5 in the Texas 3200.

1. Jim Ryun

2. Alan Webb

3. Lukas V

4. Lindgren

5. Virgin

6. Fernandez

Giddy wrote:

[quote]coach d. wrote:

I could care less that his 8:41 was a 3200. It came in an all high school race, unlike LV and Cheserek.

Verzbicas and Cheserek ran 8:40 and 8:42 2 mile (~8:37 and 8:39 3200) respectively in an all high school race.

!!!!!!!! wrote:

That course record at McAlpine was run in AWFUL conditions. Decent conditions and he breaks 14:25.

[quote]

1) The conditions weren't THAT bad, and 2) I meant the record he broke was weak.

As to Cheserek, he is definitely an honorable mention, and might go on the list if we exclude 800 specialists.

I still can't begin to fathom this type of Top 10 list without Jeff Nelson.

Let me help put this into the proper perspective (one of my specialties). The people on all of these admittedly subjective lists cover approximately that last 50 years, correct? Think about this, folks: Jeff Nelson held the national 2-mile record for most of those years! That should be sufficient to include him on any list of the all-time Top 10 high school distance runners.

When you add in the fact that Jeff held the course record at Mt. SAC for 22 years (and might still have it if the course wasn't noticeably easier now), his selection should be automatic.

Ryun and Lindgren deserve the 1/2 spots (interchangeable in my mind) because of how good they were relative to the world scene at the time. Also, just like people have pointed out with Virgin's 2 mile, times do not tell the whole story. Is Rupp's 13:37 in a paced race on a perfect night in Europe better than Lindgren's 13:44 on cinders in a championship race in which he led for 11 laps until Schul kicked? Is Cheserek's 8:39 on a 200m mondo track, mostly solo, better than Lindgren's 8:40 on a 11 lap/mile board track leading most of the race against Clarke? And how much weight do you give his US-USSR win?

More on Lindgren here:

"As for his high school indoor 8:40.0: That's only the tip of the iceberg. Consider that in June of his senior year of high school he ran 13:44.0 in the 5000. In August that year he ran a one meet double of 4:01.5 (August 13 '64) and 13:17.0 for the 3M (August 15 '64). Whether you want to use

the 5K (slightly faster on conversion) or the 3M, if you average the 3m/5K pace with the Mile pace, you find him capable of running a Two-mile in 8:26.6 to 8:27.2 in mid-August '64. The WR at the time was held by Michel Jazy at 8:29.6 from 1963, the year Jazy set the WR in the mile. In '64 Jazy finished fourth in the OG 5K behind Schul, Harald Norpoth and Bill Dellinger, and ahead of Keino.

How many high school middle distance or distance runners ever had WR ability while still high school athletes? Can you say Ted Meredith (800/880 in 1912) and Lindgren? Not Ryun..."

Of course, whether Ryun had WR ability in high school is also debatable because of the erratic pacing (closed in 53 high I think?) in his 3:55.

Another thing to consider about the old guys on this list is that their races were never paced record attempts. All of Lindgren's PRs came in real races with the big boys (Clarke, Schul, etc), likewise with Ryun, Pre, Virgin and all the rest. No rabbits like Rupp had in his semi-pro European tour, or Lukas had in his 2-miles (but not in the 3:59). I don't think Ritz ever had any true rabbited record attempts either but I am not sure about that.

1) Yes it does. The validity with which people assert that some of the older runners are better than the newer ones applies because they ran in different eras. Fernandez is not eligible to receive that handicap.

2) Doesn't matter. 8:29 > 8:34 by a massive margin.

3) Verzbicas was being rained on, and the rabbit was a terrible pacer. He went out in 57 for the 400m, and came into the 800m at 2:01.

4) You've acknowledged the point.

5) He was a distance runner. He ran 5ks during cross country, and had every opportunity to run a 5k race. In fact, in the ONE course that both of them have run on (Footlocker Nationals), Verzbicas ran faster during both his first and second victories. Fernandez was dragged along the entire race by the eventual winner and second place, while Verzbicas led the whole way through without any actual competition.

6) Here's the thing. During Ryun's era, there WERE no national high school track titles. This is the purpose of point 1. Ryun gets a bye because he ran in an era in which some of what Verzbicas accomplished would be impossible.

Fernandez could run at both NBIN and NBON, and incidentally, he did fairly well at NBON, winning the 2-mile. However, total up his titles, and he has less than Verzbicas. The comparison is valid when it is relevant, and in this case, it is, because both of them ran at National-level High School Track meets.

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The only people who actually think Fernandez was a superior high school runner have absolutely no idea as to what they're talking about.

They graduated 3 years apart, so their access to competition, opportunities, and training methodologies are virtually identical. One of them has faster times in cross country, faster times in track over every relevant distance, more national victories in cross country, and more national victories in track.

Your only valid argument is that Verzbicas had a rabbit and Fernandez did not. But of course, I could say plenty of nearly-irrelevant factors too. For instance, I could say that Verzbicas was rained on when he ran a sub-4 mile, and Fernandez was not when he ran his 4:00 1600m. I could also say that Verzbicas experienced injuries that removed him from a significant portion of his sophomore xc season, yet still won Footlocker, while Fernandez did not.

When you run an 8:29 2-mile with a rabbit, and your competition's best 2-mile is only 8:34, you're better regardless.

So the logic goes being 11s in the 2mile and 9 in the 5k is closer to being able to set records than being .9s in the mile? I think it is a bit of a stretch.We all like to play the various adjustment games (-5 seconds for the pacing, -6 for the 90 degree temps, ....) but at some point, people ran what they ran.

GVs documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti1PP0aKCqg