gyushjdjklsjkd wrote:
Webb, I know you were a great time trial and you think everyone's best time comes from time trialing, but that's not how most runners get their lifetime best PRs.
Anonymous, I know your PR came from your high school conference 1600 final but that IS how most world-class runners, especially modern-day distance runners, get their PRs.
clownish clown wrote:
[quote]horhay wrote:
[quote]VIPAM wrote:
Probably because in Aouita debut over 26 years ago and only 10000m he ran 27:20 which was around 10 seconds off the world record, is over 15 seconds faster then Alan Webb's 10000m pb.
I don't know why we can't support/praise both of the runners for their incredible versatility from 800m to 10000m! It probably will be another 26-30 years til another runner of Said Aouita and Alan Webb versatility comes along!
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Seriously? How bout Mo?
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Actually, Lagat might have even run high 1:43 and 27:20 in his career if he'd really wanted to. He could probably run 27:20 this year if he tried. ElG could have run 1:43 and 27:20 too.
Mo = no chance. I bet Ventolin would put his ability no better than 1:46 even when he ran 3:28. I'd really like to know where he put El G in his prime too, especially since El G estimated his own 400 ability as not that great.
Lagat would be better than Mo, but I dunno, he ran his share of 800's and never cracked 1:46.00. 27:20 or better might definitely still be doable for him.
If we're talking about 1500 to half-marathon, and possibly marathon, then Mo definitely takes the cake. But the 800 is a whole different animal that only Webb and Aouita ever proved they could tackle.
And now Farah is no better than 1:46. You just keep getting better and better. At this point I have to vote troll.
It doesn't matter what Ventolin says, Hardloper. The truth is that both Lagat and ElG could have run under 1:44 if they'd made it a priority. This is obvious. Watch them both close in 1:46xx here.
And remember, in closing in 1:46xx in an Olympic final, that these guys ran:
Lagat:
8/20 3:39.80
8/22 3:35.84
8/24 3:34.30 final 800m 1:46xx
ElG:
8/20 3:37.86
8/22 3:40.87
8/24 3:34.18 final 800m 1:46xx
I think these guys had a sub 1:44 open 800m in them if they'd made it a priority.
clownish clown wrote:
It doesn't matter what Ventolin says, Hardloper. The truth is that both Lagat and ElG could have run under 1:44 if they'd made it a priority. This is obvious. Watch them both close in 1:46xx here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRImmnwryNM
I sometimes disagree with Ventolin but he is usually quite accurate at interpolation.
In the 2004 Olympic Final, Rui Silva closed the 800 just as fast as the other two. He DID run the 800 fairly often, with a personal best of 1:44.91. His 5000 endurance was not in the same ballpark as Lagat or ElG, so he must have had some speed relative to them.
I don't know how much the rolling start of that last 800 helps or how much the 1:47 opening 700 meters hurts you, if at all. What I do know is there is a decent handful of results of Lagat racing world-class competition in the 800 and getting stomped on. Given all this, I don't see sub-1:44 coming from him if Silva didn't even do it.
As for Mo, 50.x speed and 3:28.8 1500 indicates 1:46-low. I think we can agree that of all 3:28-9 1500 runners, he probably has the slowest 400 speed and the fastest 5k/10k endurance. If he ever runs an 800 (like that will ever happen) find me and we'll bet on it.
I'm not knocking Ventolin, but I don't need him to tell me what is obvious. Lagat could have run under 1:44 if he'd made it a priority, as could ElG.
Look, Lagat never appeared to care much about his 800m efforts.
When Lagat had a pb of 3:34.48, he ran 1:47.07 indoors. By the time he could run 3:26.34, he could have run substantially faster at 800m. He often ran his 800m races in the early spring in California, or a couple before big 1500m races in Europe, where he was looking to run fast in the 1500m, but using the 800m as a tuneup. When he was only a 3:32.56 guy, he still ran 1:46.84 in 2009.
Understandably Alan hasn't had a consistent career except for his early early in high school. Regardless Alan has been able to pull it together to "peak" in such a way that he made a huge impact. Everyone's bodies are different and everyone performs drastically different. Alan's career isn't one of consistency but one of some great performances that made history.
Hardloper wrote:Mo = no chance. I bet Ventolin would put his ability no better than 1:46 even when he ran 3:28. I'd really like to know where he put El G in his prime too, especially since El G estimated his own 400 ability as not that great
from another thread :
"combine high 49 speed ( from his 50.89 in that 14-flat ) with the 800
( both to 0.1s accuracy - it's not worth the bother going to 0.05 let alone 0.01 accuracy )
which yields a 10k around 26'30
my favorite candidates are :
49.9 / 1'45.8 ->
3'28.22
4'43.75
7'18.56
12'38.12
26'29.98
49.9 / 1'45.7 ->
3'28.58
4'44.33
7'19.66
12'40.39
26'35.79
49.8 / 1'45.6 ->
3'28.20
4'43.83
7'18.91
12'39.14
26'33.29"
you were spot on with above
mo may have been high-1'45 that day but no way 1'44 let alone 1'43
Lagat would be better than Mo, but I dunno, he ran his share of 800's and never cracked 1:46.00. 27:20 or better might definitely still be doable for him
that's not really a true reflection on bernie
those 800s were low-key meets usually in early season
he didn't run an elite euro or golden league 800 in '01 or '04
he finished his 3'26pb with something like 53 or 54+ !!!
you really can't envisage that without some serious 800 speed
to be honest, without any mention anywhere of his 400 speed, his 800 ability at the time couda been anywhere between
1'42-flat to low-1'43
i'd bet my bottom $ he was no slower than low-1'43
the upper end is impossible to say, but i do have noah at high-1'41 based on a 1k WR of 2'11.9 off a suicidal 49.8 start & still fatigue of a 3'29.1 from less than 2/7 before & i think bernie resembled noah more than hicham ( neither kenyan couda run a 4'44 or a 7'23 - probably more speed guys v hicham's endurance background )
The Johnson's have alway been pissed and resentful that Webb did it "his way" and not the Lydiard way. Even in interviews in the early and mid 2000s (that the Johnsons's did with Webb) had a skeptical condescending tone towards Webb. There was always an underlying tone of "well if you did it the correct Lydiard way then you would be a world beater like Peter Snell". True Webb had his up and down moments. But definitely not sporadic. If anything Wejo's performances were sporadic. Lets not forget that before his 28 min 10k PR Wejo was running like a turd and people were questioning JK. There was even a picture of JK on the toilet joking that he was in the dog house because Wejo was running so inconsistent. So please stop the hypocracy here.
Lydiard Studentz wrote:
The Johnson's have alway been pissed and resentful that Webb did it "his way" and not the Lydiard way. Even in interviews in the early and mid 2000s (that the Johnsons's did with Webb) had a skeptical condescending tone towards Webb. There was always an underlying tone of "well if you did it the correct Lydiard way then you would be a world beater like Peter Snell". True Webb had his up and down moments. But definitely not sporadic. If anything Wejo's performances were sporadic. Lets not forget that before his 28 min 10k PR Wejo was running like a turd and people were questioning JK. There was even a picture of JK on the toilet joking that he was in the dog house because Wejo was running so inconsistent. So please stop the hypocracy here.
Wrong Johnson(s) numbnuts.
The fact that he had a sprint finish means that he could have OBVIOUSLY run faster. That's what a sprint finish is. Energy that you could have applied for a faster overall race. There is no opinion. This is fact. There was no massive sprint finish in his mile record.[/quote]
First of all, this is not scientifically true. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of human energy systems will agree that unless you've gone to the well and then some, there is always the potential to sprint to the finish.
And second (and what should be the final word) Webb did some great things, but at the end of the day he will be a USATF track and field hall of famer for his AR and his high school career along with his sporadic flashes of brilliance. However, he will never make it into the discussion as the greatest American track athlete of all time unless his name is accompanied by "potential" or "coulda, shoulda, woulda".
It is a joke to even make an reasonable comparison between WEbb and Aouita. As I gather, Webb ran several suburb perfornances that were mainly glorified time trials but oftenm unlke Leonel Manzano, could not deliver when the chips were down and some tactics were required. Aouita has both olympic gold medals and WR's. He had beat the reigning 800 m champ Joauquim Cruz in this even and was generally unchallenged at the 5000 m. While we are at it, what about El Geurrouj? Given that he has run 1:42 high (unofficially) and around 12:50 (20 seconds faster than Webb), how hard would have been for him hard tempo a 27:30? Given that the gold standard for medal is sub 27, i guess he was not motivated enough to try this event at Beijing.
I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Webb is in the same league as Aouita or El G, but for someone who never made it to that very highest level, Webb's range was impressive.
In a similar vein, Mo Farah hasn't reached the Haile G level and probably never will, but Haile is the only person who has demonstrated comparable excellence from 1500m - half marathon [and of course beyond in Haile's case.]
Would be fun to see Webb put up a good half or full marathon someday, but I'm not holding my breath.
dkny64 wrote:
...
Would be fun to see Webb put up a good half or full marathon someday, but I'm not holding my breath.
It would be fun, but these days I think cracking 65 would be hard for him.
Mo may not be able to go sub 1:44, but it would be very realistic to believe he could go 1:44 low....1:44 low and Olympic Gold 10K, and world class half marathon performance is superior range to Webb's 1:43 high and 27:20 10K.
Does the following look familiar?
"-1:43 800m, giving him a 10,000 / 800 combo that is still unmatched in world history"
horhay wrote:
Mo may not be able to go sub 1:44, but it would be very realistic to believe he could go 1:44 low....1:44 low and Olympic Gold 10K, and world class half marathon performance is superior range to Webb's 1:43 high and 27:20 10K.
excuse me, 27:34 for Webb.
The Opposite wrote:
Gotta agree with Hardloper here. He could also have said that Said's 800/10K PRs were unmatched and be correct.
Are Aouita's bests a little more impressive? Perhaps, but that wasn't the claim. You'd have to better Both Webb's 800 and 10k to win here.
Actually, this was the claim
"-1:43 800m, giving him a 10,000 / 800 combo that is still unmatched in world history".
Not sure how you can say that the statements that Webb's 800/10k is unmatched and also that Said's 800/10k is unmatched are both true. You're gonna need to explain that one.
Clearly Said's 10k is superior and given that Webb's 800m is merely .02 seconds faster than Said's, it should be hard to argue with the conclusion that Said's 800/10k is superior.
For Hardloper -- or anyone else for that matter, to conclude that Webb's 800/10k combo is better than Auoita's without even considering their 10ks appears to me quite transparently flawed.
Only in letsrun would people support such a view
[quote]Letsrun Gunner wrote:
A few of my thoughts for this thread.
First off you can just as easily say that no one has run as fast at 800 and 10k as Webb just as you can you can say that no one has run as fast at 800 and 10k as Said Aouita.
No you effin can't. If no one has run as fast as Said at those events, then you cannot also say non one has run as fast as Webb at the same events. It is one or the other or a tie. Not both.
I am amazed by you people