Why we're all not running 2:22?

Art Siemers wrote:

On a different note, I was wondering if anyone experienced an increase in speed after marathon training. I have been flirting with the 4 minute mile for the past eight years, and decided three months ago to average 100 miles for 10 weeks and then jump in my first marathon. I thought a change in training may help me get a break through in the middle distance events. Any takes on this? I have read most of Lydiard's books, but am curious if any of you have tried this? My pr's are now 4:01.51 and 2:18:51. My ultimate goals are 3:58 and 2:15. Prior to the last three months I typically averaged 60-70 miles, with a full-time teaching and coaching job. Its tough to take it to the next level, but well worth it.

Both DeHaven and Radcliffe have said that the marathon training helped their 5k/10k "speed", but I don't know how it would affect mile speed.

dunes runner wrote:

If you can't understand how money works, then what value does all that econonics have anyway.

Basically, nothing.

I didn't say I don't know how money works, I don't see what you're trying get at with your hypothetical situation. Besides, economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources, so my point is that prices are just numbers (now I'm going off on the same tangent my 19 page paper I turned in today was on).

You said earlier:

Therefore, if you can "earn" the 28% (and hopefully have something left over to live on) and pay it at the end of the year, that means someone else has only 44 cents and is up shit creek. You might notice there are a lot of people up shit creek these days. This is why.

"This is why."--That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen (besides your claim of women's collegiate athletics being superior to men's yet deprived of the same levels of funding). If I make $28, then someone else LOSES $28? I guess all those people making lots of money is why there's more homeless people out on the streets these days, eh?

Conto wrote:

I think I could run sub 2:20 in the marathon...Its not all that hard...To me, a 2:18 marathon is no more than a 15:00 5k.

I would like to coach one day and am currently advising several athletes. My role is as important as anyone else's because I am doing what I feel is necessary... developing our Olympic Talent.

Here's hoping this pompous deluded ass NEVER gets anywhere near someone with "Olympic Talent" (note the capitalization, how full of yourself can you be?).

What is your job anyway, Cunto? Writing asinine message board posts? Please, PLEASE, grace us with your background and qualifications that would make you a good fit to work with "Olympic Talent."

Ignorance and arrogance, always a disgusting combo.

Agreed; all those who have never been there, or merely think they 'could' run a 2:22 just wait until you have achieved 'it' before knocking the time.

Excuses will never support a system, but those who try to drag down the spirit of running when never achieving... tusch!

kartelite wrote:

my point is that prices are just numbers

right.

If I make $28, then someone else LOSES $28?

Yes, but the real reason is because the fed has produced only a finite amount of money, and then charges "interest" -- which was not produced and doesn't exist -- on that money. People keep going farther in debt trying to pay that interest (the national "debt") and, yes a lot of them become homeless.

I guess all those people making lots of money is why there's more homeless people out on the streets these days, eh?

No one "makes" any money except the fed. The rest of us just exchange what they made, and give them our assets, labor, services, homes, and control of our lives in return.

That's the best post I have read yet. I'm curious, how many people participating in this message board discussion have not only entertain this radical (latin for 'root') view, but plan to implement it. I can honestly say I am at that point where a I'm fresh out of college and career choice has presented itself, but I cannot downplay where the heart is right now. And that's running. Right on to those who are making a similar sacrifice. To those of you who are not in a position, there should be support for those who are, in any way possible.

"Collective Effort to maximize potential.......or at least make it to the trials"

dunes runner wrote:

Yes, but the real reason is because the fed has produced only a finite amount of money, and then charges "interest" -- which was not produced and doesn't exist -- on that money. People keep going farther in debt trying to pay that interest (the national "debt") and, yes a lot of them become homeless.

Dunes runner, you are a moron. Even in dumbass high school liberal-clouded economics classes they teach kids that this isn't true. The fed produces more and more money each day, depending on a number of factors. When more materials are created, money is created. The fed accounts for this increase in money by creating more currency.

Wait, here's an easier way to look at it. If I buy a stock at $10 and then sell it at $15, $5 were just created. At any point the Fed could print $5 more and pay this other guy, but it would be dumb, because the guy will probably make even more money, making the nation even richer.

Nelson Rockefeller managed to make a Billion Dollars while paying his workers more than any other large corporation, while selling his products for less than anybody else. How could this be possible if he weren't creating money.

If you think that anyone who makes a dollar is stealing it from someone else, you've spent way too much time on the Socialist Party's website.

And neither will anyone on this board if they keep making such a big deal out of 2:20. 100s of people did it in the early 80s. Talk to Malmo or Hodgie. Its not something to get upset at... I'm not diminishing the accomplishment. It will still take YEARS of consistent hard work. I'm just saying if 100s of people could run 2:22 or faster in the early 80s, I think I could do it now. We don't have a lack of talent in this country... what we have are too many people thinking 2:20 is fast.

M

[quote]Conto wrote:

Which is what? I fail to see your question. I may not be a competitive runner, and nor do I chose to be. If I were to put everything in my running, I think I could run sub 2:20 in the marathon. I think the majority of people on this board if they put everything into their running could run sub 2:20. Its not all that hard. My perspective is just different from you guys. I am not arguing here. To me, a 2:18 marathon is no more than a 15:00 5k. If that's the way I feel, I hope you see why I would chose to do something else with my 6 hours a day.

Now, just because I made the choice to not be a competetive runner does not mean my role in US mid and long distance running is any less diminished. I would like to coach one day and am currently advising several athletes. I would like to use the money I some day make to help and fund promising athletes. My role is as important as anyone else's because I am doing what I feel is necessary... developing our Olympic Talent.

You are full of shit and excuses and I bet your athletes see right through you. Any day you want to race me, bring it on. If my 2:18 is equal to a 15 min 5k it shouldn't be a problem. Why I'm I defensive you may ask, because you insulted me and every other runner with the guts to train hard.

-Art Siemers and I'm not afraid to put my name to a post!

not making a big deal out of 2:20 is not the same thing as saying you could do it if only you wanted to. obviously a time that is 4 min slower than the women's WR isn't earth shattering. doesn't mean i can do it though and i have broken 15 for 5k.

Conto is Michael Contopolous (spelling may be a little off).

Look 'im up. He's "okay", but certainly not elite. However, he "could run 2:20". WHATEVER! NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Mike, ordinarily you make good, honest, insightful posts. But the crap you've said on this thread opens yourself up to extreme ridicule...

I can respect the person who has balance in their life (like Flagpole Wiley) as much as the person who gives up everything to run as fast as they can (Frank Shorter is probably the best example of those who have suceeded in this fashion). But unless you match Shorter's success, what do you guys who gave up jobs, income, women, kids, friends, and just about every other interest intend to do when you reach your late 30's and are no longer considered elite? How about 40? 50? There not much cash out there for U.S. national grandmasters. I thought the golf example about breaking 75 was a good one. Everyone has the right to take their shot, but I realized a long time ago that you still need a great deal of talent, along with the hard work, to get to that level. I respect both lifestyle choices.

Dr. Blackjack wrote:

Everyone has the right to take their shot, but I realized a long time ago that you still need a great deal of talent, along with the hard work, to get to that level.

i do not presume to speak for all or even most, but i believe that a prevalent outlook is one that has less to do with reaching some arbitrarily defined "level" and more to do with pushing oneself to see just how good one can possibly be and being contented with where ever the chips may fall for having undertaken the noble quest. in any case, one can not possibly ever know if one is indeed ultimately capable if one never gives it an honest attempt.

Art Siemers wrote:

My take on the situation, is that anyone who trains hard, regardless of time helps our sport.

beautifully stated.

I've been a "lurker" on this thread, but I've followed it with considerable interest. For most people who have not been certified early on as potentially world-class (by virtue of, for example, a 3:53 mile in high school), the decision to dedicate a large chunk of one's life to the pursuit of competitive running goals should not be made lightly. That may be especially true in the U.S. and other societies where intelligent, hard-working people have many options in life. In economic terms, the "opportunity costs" of running are greater where there are attractive alternatives available. In a society where there are only poor alternatives, the opportunity costs are much lower. As a singer-songwriter observed, "When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."

If you are tempted to chuck your job and everything else to become a super-hard-core runner, consider the possibility that the temptation does not arise solely out of your desire to be a good runner, but rather also arises out of your dissatisfaction with other aspects of your life. In a society where people have lots of options, there may be better options than casting aside everything else to pursue your goals in running.

Although this message may sound critical of those who decide to take the plunge, it's not meant to be. I can't honestly say that the people I've known who have been full-time or "underemployed" runners have, in the long term, been disproportionately unhappy about the choices that they've made in life. I do believe, however, that some would have been better off if they had dealt with their dissatisfactions in other ways.

I ran sub-2:20 marathons while working brutally hard hours in a very stressful occupation. It can certainly be done, even by runners of rather modest talent. But there are costs to leading a life that is dominated by concerns about managing time and managing fatigue. My own life during those years was very monastic, and almost every day seemed like a battle to keep pushing forward. I can't say that I regret those years, but I probably wouldn't recommend that life to most people.

In my opinion, these are really hard choices, and different people will legitimately choose different paths.

third choice wrote:

If I buy a stock at $10 and then sell it at $15, $5 were just created.

Hmmmm where are you creating this money dear boy.

At any point the Fed could print $5 more and pay this other guy, but it would be dumb, because the guy will probably make even more money, making the nation even richer.

Oh yes let's all make our own money. The fed will love that I am sure. : )

Nelson Rockefeller managed to make a Billion Dollars while paying his workers more than any other large corporation, while selling his products for less than anybody else. How could this be possible if he weren't creating money.

I'll let you try this first.

If you think that anyone who makes a dollar is stealing it from someone else, you've spent way too much time on the Socialist Party's website.

Nowhere did I say or suggest any such thing. You have been in school too long, your powers of comprehension are shot. I am not in any political party. You would know much more about the Socialist Party than I would.

What I said was that we are simply exchanging the finite amount of money that was printed by the fed, while they are gaining more and more control of our assets and our lives.

Of course they count on most of the people, like you, being ignorant and not being able to understand such things.

Yes. Each time the Fed prints a dollar bill, money is created. Isn't that so, big man? Funny. And I'd always been taught the PEOPLE in the economy determine economic growth and standard of living, rather than how much the Fed gives us (????).

AW FUCK!!

First we are talking about a very noble goal for an American Athlete: Running sub-2;22 and Qualifying for the Olympic Trials.

Now, we have degenerated into a gripe session about cash.

FUCK THE CASH: JUST RUN.

Jason

Relax Art. First of all, my name is Michael Contopoulos. My e-mail is attached if you feel like saying such things to my face. Why would I race you? You are 1000 times better than I will ever be. That is why I am not running. I know my limits and I would rather help out other athletes than try my whole life to achieve a standard that I don't deem all that important. Art, you are an unbelievable runner. As is anyone who runs 2:20 or faster. That guy, Miles ane Miles, Jeez, that is unbelievable. Its just not worth it to me. And how can you say 2:20 is so unbelievable? Do you want me to post the list of well over 100 people doing it IN ONE YEAR??? Back in the day the guys who were considered decent LOCAL runners ran that fast. You all need to stop getting your panties all up in a bunch and relax. BTW... I never said I was a coach... I said I was advising and helping a few friends of OT and OG caliber to achieve their goals. You think Vin Lanana or Gags can go out there and run a fast marathon? Does that diminish their role in the sport?

M

well, if anyone wants to drop everything and just run, a friend and i are going for a 3,200 mile run starting in late february on the east coast. we're gonna start on one beach and run until we hit another (florence, or). we should be finished sometime in august. you're all welcome to join us.......sehon and bronfenbrenner