HEPS Cross Country 2012

A Columbia vs. Princeton dual meet may be probable for the men, but what about the individual title? Is Arroyo Yamin the favorite? Sienko? Geoghegan?

Based on what I saw from the Paul Short results, I think Dartmouth has a good shot at Top 3. While they may end up 3rd behind Columbia and Princeton (I don't know who will get the top spot quite yet), I think don't think Dartmouth will be a distant 3rd. I think their top 2 or 3 guys can split up the Princeton and Columbia runners pretty well and make the team battle that much more interesting.

As for the women, I don't know if Dartmouth will have enough depth to overcome Cornell right now. I wish Columbia did more head-to-head races with other Ivies before Heps...

C/M Runner wrote:

As for the women, I don't know if Dartmouth will have enough depth to overcome Cornell right now. I wish Columbia did more head-to-head races with other Ivies before Heps...

No way will Dartmouth women beat Cornell at Heps. Cornell put six runners ahead of Dartmouth's fourth on Friday. Yale, though a tad slower than Dartmouth on average, put their top five runners within 25 seconds and will beat Dartmouth as well. I think Columbia is in there, probably between Cornell and Yale. Harvard and Brown are retreating from their early high rankings and Penn was never there in the first place. Princeton doesn't get a mention as they didn't even run in the Gold Race at Paul Short. They showed up with a bunch of underclasswomen and took third in the "Brown" race just ahead of Indiana University...of Pennsylvania... Hello?

Rustamon wrote:

Princeton doesn't get a mention as they didn't even run in the Gold Race at Paul Short. They showed up with a bunch of underclasswomen and took third in the "Brown" race just ahead of Indiana University...of Pennsylvania... Hello?

Princeton "A" squad ran at Notre Dame, same as men.

So they're either being stealthy or they are scared. Which one? Who will go to Princeton for their Invitational two weeks before HEPS? Last year it was just Yale and Columbia for the women. Can Princeton break into the top four at HEPS? Who knows? Not much head to head competition... Strategy or avoidance?

Rustamon wrote:

So they're either being stealthy or they are scared. Which one? . . . Can Princeton break into the top four at HEPS?

Oh, stop with the trolling. Princeton's women have moved back up to fourth in their Region's rankings, based on their varsity's last performance. They're legitimate contenders for the Heps title--and certainly for the podium, even in this really loaded year. (In the Northeast Region, Ivy teams--Cornell, Columbia, Yale, Dartmouth--hold four of the first five ranking spots.)

Personally, I don't see much point in having Paul Short be a pre-Heps. One purpose of the regular season (from this fan's viewpoint) is to generate a bunch of questions that only Heps will resolve--and a bunch of scores (back in the day, when dual meets were more common) that Heps would settle.

To answer one of your actual questions, I believe that Cornell will send JV men, and maybe women, to Princeton's meet on 10/13. But the big meet is the day before at Wisconsin, so the varsities--including Princeton's!--will be there, I think.

If my post was trolling and it generated your thoughtful response, I stand as charged. After Villanova, the Mid-Atlantic is weak. I think Princeton women finish in 5th after, in order, Cornell, Columbia, Yale, Dartmouth then Harvard and Brown (pick 'em) and, finally Penn. I don't have a lot to go on - wish I had more... You? If Princeton runs the JV at their own invitational, or if nobody else comes, then we'll all be guessing right up to the main event. Just a fan here too.

Rustamon wrote:

So they're either being stealthy or they are scared.

Yes, by flying halfway across the country to run in an A-level race rather (4 ranked teams, including #2) than running the B-level race right down the road (2 ranked teams, one of which rested their top girls), they are either stealthy or scared. Makes perfect sense. Oh wait, that's the opposite of true.

TK1451 wrote:

Yes, by flying halfway across the country to run in an A-level race rather (4 ranked teams, including #2) than running the B-level race right down the road (2 ranked teams, one of which rested their top girls), they are either stealthy or scared. Makes perfect sense. Oh wait, that's the opposite of true.

This thread is HEPS Cross Country 2012 and, if you read up a few posts, there is a repeated lament that there is not enough inter-Ivy competition. Specifically called into question are teams from Columbia and Princeton who seem to favor meets where their Ivy League opponents are not running. Relative to HEPS, this could be because Columbia and Princeton do not wish to show their strong hand (my imperfect description was "stealthy") or because they wish to avoid showing weakness in front of their HEPS competition before the event (my incendiary and again imperfect description was "scared"). Your witty response demonstrates that it's probably not the latter, for Princeton women. I'll accept that. So, is that the way readers of this post want it to work, specifically, Ivy League teams increasingly avoiding competition with one another before HEPS? Or not? I actually don't have an opinion. I was trying to handicap the event. Lack of head to head competition makes that harder but not any less fun.

I always just assumed that Princeton and Columbia went to the bigger meets because there is better competition available for their superior teams - Princeton men, for example, not participating in the annual HY(P) affair.

National rankings are out!

http://www.ustfccca.org/2012/10/featured/new-poll-shifts-squads-in-di-florida-state-top-womens-team

Men:

11th - Princeton

17th - Columbia

RV - Dartmouth

Women:

9th - Cornell

23rd - Columbia

30th - Yale

RV - Dartmouth, Princeton

TK1451 wrote:

Yes, by flying halfway across the country to run in an A-level race rather (4 ranked teams, including #2) than running the B-level race right down the road (2 ranked teams, one of which rested their top girls), they are either stealthy or scared. Makes perfect sense. Oh wait, that's the opposite of true.

As an addendum, the strategy seems to have backfired for Princeton, at least in terms of the National Rankings (women) just released. Those Ivy League teams who came to Paul Short and did well against Georgetown, Villanova, etc. in a B-level race, mind you, moved up markedly in the National Rankings:

Cornell RV(24) to 9th

Yale No votes to 30th

Dartmouth RV(1) to RV(6)

Whereas, Princeton women who ran 9th at ND moved down receiving only four votes as compared to 17 from the prior week. It looks like there may be some difference of opinion on whether the Paul Short was a B-level race. Or, maybe flying half way across the country to compete in an A-level race is not adequately figured in to the subjective voting.

So, back to my original post with a specific question. Do Princeton women beat Dartmouth (for 4th) at HEPS?

Or in the case of the Princeton women's team the coach being a Notre Dame alum likes to take the team there.

I was inclined to give the coach more credit than that, but now that you mention it, it's possible that the decision was personal and social. Heck, rather than drive a couple of hours to Bethlehem to participate in a race, the outcome of which will have a huge impact [Yes, huge impact - I don't care what others say, Georgetown was there. Princeton beats them last week and they're ranked 10th in the nation.] on how we are held nationally and regionally, let's take an extra couple of days to fly to Indiana, compete in a serious race as best we can despite the travel handicap just so I can meet up with a couple of old running friends, fraternity brothers, former coaches, etc.? I don't think so. Coach Farrell deserves more than that. I bet he focuses on what's best for the team. This year, for whatever reason, it didn't work out. There's still time to bring it together but objective observers would say, "This isn't the year for the [women] Tigers. I have them fifth, maybe fourth - no podium. What about you Tigerfan?

TigerfanI wrote:

Or in the case of the Princeton women's team the coach being a Notre Dame alum likes to take the team there.

Rustamon wrote:

So, back to my original post with a specific question. Do Princeton women beat Dartmouth (for 4th) at HEPS?

Hmmm... I don't know... Princeton will have the home-course advantage and the extra support out there. I think that will help them out.

Good news is that all Ivies except for Penn are scheduled to run the Wisconsin Invite on 10/12 (Penn will be racing again in Easton that weekend).

Conference schedule:

This weekend is somewhat light, as Columbia will run tomorrow and Brown, Yale, and Dartmouth run on Saturday (I don't think they will run their top people though with Wisconsin the following week).

Friday, October 5

Columbia at the Metropolitan Championships — Van Cortlandt Park (Bronx, N.Y.)

Saturday, October 6

Brown, Dartmouth & Yale at the New England Championships — Franklin Park (Boston, Mass.)

Nice summary, C/M--thanks.

"Do Princeton women beat Dartmouth (for 4th) at HEPS?"

Feels crazy, doesn't it, to be projecting Princton's women--who went 1-2-3-4-5 at Heps, not too long ago--to be off the podium? And maybe in the bottom half of the League? I've known P. Farrell, in some previous falls, to start his team off a bit slowly and come on like gangbusters later. For the Princeton women, October is historically "their month"; they're at Wisco next week, and I (strongly) suspect will take a nice step up.

That said: It's just nuts that an outstanding team (or two) will have to finish in the bottom half at Heps. What a great women's xc conference that is! BTW I don't see the Cornell women as anything like a lock to win at Heps, though they certainly deserve to be the favorites now (NB: four weeks out). Last year, they prevailed only because their #5 went apeshirt over the last mile--even though the meet was "ithacated" and they were probably the best-prepared (equipment, etc.) team in the field.

This year, Cornell once again has a solid front four, and it's distinctly better than last year's; but the rest of the League is better, too! So if you're Cornell, what's your strategy? Do you have 4-6 women commit to stay with your #3-4 runners as long as possible, and trust that at least one of them will keep up the whole way? Or, given that WWindsor has *relatively* more running room (cf. VCP, say), do you have each runner go out at the pace that's right for her, and then hope that one or two move up toward the front four? That approach worked pretty well last year...

Okay, if I *have* to make a prediction (I never have before)--very much subject to change:

1. Cornell

2. Princeton

3. Columbia (very close)

4. Dartmouth

5. Yale

6. Brown

7. Harvard

8. Penn

Yes, I feel stupid putting a *great* team like Yale fifth, and I will be completely unsurprised if they finish on the podium and make me feel stupider. (I don't feel any less stupid picking Harvard for seventh, btw--their potential is massive--or Columbia, who could win the whole thing, third.) But this is what I'm going with now.

Speaking of crazy, how 'bout the Kolas Calculator (http://www.flotrack.org/page/2012-Kolas-Calculator) picking five Ivy men's teams (versus three for the women?!?) to make Nationals? Forget "likely," is that even mathematically *possible*?--I know you all follow the arcane qualifying rules better than I do.

ivyguy wrote:

Speaking of crazy, how 'bout the Kolas Calculator (http://www.flotrack.org/page/2012-Kolas-Calculator) picking five Ivy men's teams (versus three for the women?!?) to make Nationals? Forget "likely," is that even mathematically *possible*?--I know you all follow the arcane qualifying rules better than I do.

Well, the strong showing by many of the Ivy teams last weekend definitely gives them a good base for NCAA qualification. But there is still a lot of racing to do, as I believe the Kolas will take into account the Wisconsin Invite results, Regionals, and then other medium-size competitions where you will have ranked teams against one another (I think Heps results will factor into this as well due to the number of teams that are ranked or getting votes). Otuside of the top two auto bids for each region, the rest of the slots is based on ranking and their overall record for the year against other ranked teams. I'm not quite sure what the "push" means though.

My Predictions - HEPS Women 2012

1. Cornell

2. Columbia

3. Yale

4. Dartmouth

5. Princeton

6. Harvard

7. Brown

8. Penn

I know, wrong thread for this, but in looking for Cornell's cross-country rosters I ended up with their (preliminary) track lineups:

http://www.cornellbigred.com/roster.aspx?path=wtrack&

http://www.cornellbigred.com/roster.aspx?path=mtrack&

Obviously these are subject to change.

As usual in recent years, their women are around 100 (slightly more), and their men about 20 fewer. That's actually *lower* than the difference in numbers between men's and women's cross, where the Big Red women have 25-30 more than the men. Does Cornell pick up any guys from the football team? I know some other Ivy teams do, but I don't have a sense that CU does. Does their football team forbid the pracice?

Which, roundaboutly, leads back to this thread's earlier discussion about the elimination of events from Heps. Okay, I can see the rationale for eliminating individual events that aren't contested at the NCAAs: Heps is an increasingly-competitive meet, often held on superior tracks; there's a real chance for an individual to qualify.

But relays? Come on: how likely is an Ivy team to get a national *relay* qualifier at Heps (unless it completely blows off its chances in individual events and just loads a fresh relay)? Those relays are there (IMHO) for the excitement and competition, NOT for national qualifying--you qualify your relay at other meets.

I guess I'm just another of the people who really, really don't want to see the 4x800s go. Those are just great races. And of course it makes a difference to a team like Cornell's, with 50+ women (now) on the t&f roster listed as distance or middle-distance. Where do they get to run?

And it's not like Cornell is unique in that respect. Most of the Ivy teams are loaded in the middle distances--it just seems a shame, not to give them another (great) race to run.