How does Fayeteville-Manlius do it?

im not 100% positive, but i think the modified program has a completely separate program and set of coaches. Can anyone clarify this?

regardless of whether the 8th graders contribute, allowing them to practice with the high school team, and thus providing them great coaching and training for six years is clearly very beneficial to the 9th through 12th grade runners. Instead of doing 10 mpw max in 7th and 8th grade with the gym teacher at the junior high, they are doing real workouts and the coach can bring them along gradually on a systematic plan for many years. So, that is an advantage that NY teams have.

Aren't there age group clubs in California developing kids before 9th grade? Isn't that how Jordan Hasay got started? So she had a huge advantage entering into h.s.

And in NY, the Middle School teams are separate from the H.S. teams, with different coaches, except when there is no xc team in high school (like Bronxville) not sure if it's one team there. Kids move up to varsity based on a request from the parents and the recommendation of the middle school coach. It is done for the benefit of the children, not to make a team better. It's like offering an advanced math class to a child who excels in that particular subject area.

Like i said, i'm pretty sure the modified and varsity teams do not practice together or have the same coaches.

probably blood bosting

Hard to say about talent level. Given over 204,000 high school cross country participants in 2010 with 45% female (according to NFHS), there seem to be plenty of girls running nationally. NY girls haven't dominated on an individual level during the same period (no winners at NXN and two at Foot Locker - Ryan and Cuffe; and only two more during FLN's first 25 years). Contrast the winners from one state only at NXN with the 17 different states represented by winners at FLN. (BTW, as one might expect given the populations, CA and NY are one-two at FLN with eight and four winners respectively.)

There is no similar NY domination at individual nationals (i.e. FLN), obviously.

How much of that is great coaching, and how much is individual talent which will tend to be dispersed evenly (per capita) across the country? I think a footlocker finalist (for the most part) represents a great individual talent, whereas a NXN team that is good year after year represents excellent coaching. Paraphrasing Bob Kennedy`s high school coach - the most important thing he (the coach) did was make sure that Bob didn`t miss the bus to the meets. Obviously coaching can help, but at that super elevated individual level either the kids have the talent or they don`t.

To put it another way there is certainly enough individual talent in girls xc to make the right to run at FLN extremely competitive. But once you start talking about 4th and 5th girls at most programs, even good ones - there is a drop-off. The FM 4-8 girls most likely simply do not have the talent to ever run at FLN, but with some great coaching they can whup every other team´s 4-8.

ENOUGH FLUFF! wrote:

Okay kiddos, that's enough bickering. Let's get back to training talk. I read about FM on here all the time and I've heard the "blah blah team spirit, motivation, etc," and that's all well and good, but one thing I have not seen is a REAL workout schedule. So here's what I want from the FM fanboys (or girls): A typical two-week block of training during the summer, early season, and late season. So July, September, October. Pep talks don't turn 18:00 kids into 16:00 kids, training does. Maybe you need to have the pep talk to do the training, but you can't rah-rah your way to a dynasty.

I've seen Bill Aris speak & he avoided showing a true training schedule. He only talks in abstract ways about "team." I understand the need for creating a running culture, but it would be nice to see what specifically they're doing (esp. when you pay to go to a clinic to hear the person speak & he refuses to address the topic). Usually at coaching clinics, the speaker is quite generous with his/her knowledge, not Bill Aris. Money down the drain!

My experience tells me that when you go see a coach speak and they don't want to give alot of specifics it is typically because they are afraid of criticism. Too much too soon, stuff like that.

I have been to about 60 coaching clinics/conferences and really the only ones who didn't go into detail were Saratoga and FM. Almost all high school, college, or pro coaches when into some detail, and some handed out their training plans.

i think the idea that saratoga is super-secretive is misguided. nicole blood (while still on the team) gave pretty detailed information about what she was doing, presumably with the coaches' permission...

i believe she had a public training log of sorts on dyestat the spring she won the outdoor nat'ls mile?

she gave the info after she left the school. Remember she went to california during her senior year.

I seriously doubt the Kranicks gave Blood permission to write that about her workouts while she was on Saratoga. That came out when Blood and the Kranicks were at odds (and thats putting it nicely) and she was no longer a member of the team.

Besides that dyestat article on what she did at Saratoga, i cant seem to remember anything online about what Saratoga does.

what you guys are saying is completely wrong.

yes, she gave an interview while running for fastlane where she talked about a typical week of training during cross at saratoga

but her sophomore spring, when she won the AOC mile, she did the following on dyestat. i would be shocked if this was without the kranicks' approval

http://www.dyestat.com/training/blood1.htm

never mind lol... my B

They have a bedtime and talk a lot about "excellence". They take a week long break at the end of June... They have a practice where they don't run but is one of the hardest workouts (I assume they do lots of general strength work). They don't talk much about their training to anyone. What are they hiding?

You could also reasonably argue that high schools boys have more diluted talent because of football. Lots of very fit and athletic boys play football, drawing running talent away from cross country. It might be harder for a boy's team to consistently assemble superior talent year after year.

Some coaches have this idea that if they give up their "secret" workouts and training schedules, everyone else will copy them and be just as good as they are. It's completely unfounded, of course. If Renato Canova is open enough with his training that he can post FULL SCHEDULES for Olympic and World Champions for the entire world to see, why can't a high school coach post a typical two-week block in September? This secretive philosophy is ultimately counterproductive to the sport.

oldtimerfromlongago wrote:

My experience tells me that when you go see a coach speak and they don't want to give alot of specifics it is typically because they are afraid of criticism. Too much too soon, stuff like that.

I have been to about 60 coaching clinics/conferences and really the only ones who didn't go into detail were Saratoga and FM. Almost all high school, college, or pro coaches when into some detail, and some handed out their training plans.

Man, I was thinking of going to the Super Distance Summit & the Saratoga coaches are supposed to be there. I wonder if that's going to suck?

But, I agree about coaching clinics/conferences. I've seen some amazingly generous coaches over the years. That's the reason I go to them. They've given so much of themselves. We, as high school coaches or runners, want to see the SPECIFICS of the program(s).

Specifics of the FM program are not available, but knowing those specifics are unlikely to help most other teams.

Basic secrets of the FM program have been made public by Coach Aris and articles posted about FM. First and foremost, it is a life style chosen by the kids, coaches and parents, and this choice goes way beyond a normal commitment to run well for your team.

The life style choice involves a real commitment to proper diet, sleeping habits and daily routine. This choice has nothing to do with training, but is the foundation for everything that follows and it separates the good programs from the great programs.

General training tendencies of the FM program have been witnessed and discussed by local coaches.

(1) FM does serious weight training. FM is known as a strength team for a reason.

(2) FM does daily core exercises that might make kids on other teams quit. More strength.

(3) Frequent hill workouts. More strength.

(4) Total mileage is lower than most people believe because running is done at a quality pace. Long slow distance does not exist in favor of reasonably fast distance. Running slow teaches your body to run slow so minimize it.

(5) Quality time trials, intervals and tempo. The goal is fast 5K races, so train like the goal is fast 5K races.

(6) Customize the training individually when necessary. Coach Aris does it for some runners because it is best for them.

Commitment to Team and Commitment to Excellence is the secret to FM’s success. The devil is not in the details on this one. Proper life style and serious training does it when kids buy into the program and live it. Knowing training specifics might be interesting but other coaches will only modify it for their own use because each program and group of kids are different. Knowledgeable coaches do this already and can do it better themselves knowing the general training philosophy.

To: Consider FM

From: Bill Aris

Thank you.

Bill