malmo wrote:
TO put things in perspective, Ritzenhein is probably not even the top 30 Americans to run in New York.
Ritz is the 19th fastest American at NYC. Two tries, great conditions, conservative first halves on both and still can't close the deal. Not a good sign at all.
Renato,
A) First I have to apologize and have to stop name-calling even if it was just the word "crazy". You are a top coach and even if I don't agree with you, I need to remember that I enjoy your contributions and I don't want you to leave. You have a lot to offer the board and I want you to keep doing it.
B) I am curious about what you are saying here.
I am hearing you say that people need to specialize in the marathon (and do the kind of training that you discuss) and as a consequence give up on the shorter distances? Is this correct?
Or do you believe that runners should do 5k/10k specific blocks of training in the lead up to track season and MARATHON-specific blocks leading up to that?
I am not that familiar with who you coach, but do you believe that a runner can be a top 5k/10k runner for part of the year (track season I guess) and also be a great marathoner (you say sub-2:08) for part of the year? In other words, be a marathon specialist for 1 or perhaps 2 periods per year (Spring marathon, Fall marathon), but also be a 5k/10k specialist in track season?
C) You have written a lot about the modern training for the marathon and I assume you have specific training for the 10k that you give your athletes? Would you say that 10k-specific training has also changed from the era before Africans were dominant (I will define that as 1970-1990)?
Would you mind posting a 2 weeks or a month of what might be considered typical training for a top marathoner of yours and also a similar block of 10k or 5k training?
If you don't give that kind of thing away then that is fine, and if you just want to paste a block that you have written out before that would be great.
I would like to see the specific differences between old-school training and the modern training that targets the event that you are talking about.
Renato Canova wrote:
About athletes running in 3 hours, of course this is not the way for training. These athletes, if sollecitated in their fastest speed, many times are not able to reac a level of lactate of 4 mml. This means they are able to use fats only.
What would you suggest for these runners, to develop their ability at higher levels of lactate?
Buying Renato's book from IAAF right now
I think the book's about 6 years old, so a lot of the information is way out of date.
newname wrote:
I am not that familiar with who you coach, but do you believe that a runner can be a top 5k/10k runner for part of the year (track season I guess) and also be a great marathoner (you say sub-2:08) for part of the year? In other words, be a marathon specialist for 1 or perhaps 2 periods per year (Spring marathon, Fall marathon), but also be a 5k/10k specialist in track season?
Um...ever heard of GEOFFREY MUTAI?
the smartest letsrunner wrote:
newname wrote:I am not that familiar with who you coach, but do you believe that a runner can be a top 5k/10k runner for part of the year (track season I guess) and also be a great marathoner (you say sub-2:08) for part of the year? In other words, be a marathon specialist for 1 or perhaps 2 periods per year (Spring marathon, Fall marathon), but also be a 5k/10k specialist in track season?
Um...ever heard of GEOFFREY MUTAI?
Plus one even more obvious than that...
wait...
Maybe um, the World Record Holder in the Marathon? Haile Gebreselassie?
Runs a 26:52 in May, a 27:06 in a championship race IN AUGUST, then busts out a 2:03:59 in September.
The answer is very easy :
a) if you prepare marathon with the modern training, and of course you are a "fast" type runner, coming from good times in 10000m, you can have a top in shorter distances BEFORE the marathon (for example, 6 weeks) looking at HM, and AFTER the marathon (for example, 2 months) looking at 10000m.
This because the modern system is : during FUNDAMENTAL PERIOD to increase the AEROBIC POWER, and during the SPECIAL PERIOD to extend the ability in lasting at high percentage of the Aerobic Power. After the marathon, we have a short recovery (3 weeks), reducing mileage and putting in training some special exercise for recovering the qualities that long run goes to consume (elasticity, reactivity, agility). During a so short period, the athlete doesn't lose too much of his endurance. So, immediately after this recover, he can start training of specific speed endurance for 10000m, with the possibility to enhance the specific volume.
If, for example, when you prepare 10000m coming from the speed, you can run 10 times 1000m a little faster than the pace of 10000m (for ex., for an athlete having 28'20" that is 2'50" per km, 10x1000m in 2'47" with 1'30" recovery), using the endurance you had after marathon, you can run 15x1000 at the same pace, and this means an IMPROVEMENT IN SPECIFIC ENDURANCE.
Of course, when you are able running 15 times 1000m in 2'47", you are able running 10x1000 in 2'43" / 2'44".
So, the effect of having more endurance is TO ENHANCE YOUR SPECIFIC SPEED.
b) If, instead, some athlete thinks better to push in direction of speed, with low mileage (and especially
not using long fast runs in any session), not only he runs SLOWER 10000m, but NEVER can become competitive in a full marathon in a period of 3-4 months.
But, practically, we have to face a problem : if an athlete wants to stay at his top for two seasonal peaks (marathon in Spring and in Autumn), the mental concentration in training must be so high that it's very difficult to preserve for a full season nervous energies, enough for being competitive everywhere.
That's the reason because it's not common to find top runners able, in the same year, to run at their best both marathon and 10000m ; however, under methodological and physiological point of view, this is possible, coming from marathon to 10000m, not from 10000m to marathon.
"But, practically, we have to face a problem : if an athlete wants to stay at his top for two seasonal peaks (marathon in Spring and in Autumn), the mental concentration in training must be so high that it's very difficult to preserve for a full season nervous energies, enough for being competitive everywhere."
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3881577&page=5#ixzz1CK2OKaeW
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Hi Renato,
I have been fascinated with your input and very much appreciate how liberal you are sharing your experiences and observations with this forum.
My interest has to do with what you refer to as "nervous energies". Over my 30 years of running experiences I have come to recognize the significance of running flat, in essence like a battery that has become discharged. It has made racing well quite difficult indeed.
I would enjoy knowing more about what markers to pay attention to during the course of training and possible solutions if one should become or is growing "stale".
Thanks-
Mike
One thing that has become very apparent in this thread.
CANOVA AND SALAZAR TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH HOW TO COACH A MARATHONER.
If you respect CANOVA you must think that SALAZAR is nuts when it comes to the marathon.
I will say that I resect Canova.
help a guy out wrote:
If you respect CANOVA you must think that SALAZAR is nuts when it comes to the marathon.
Salazar is nuts, but it's not because of his coaching.
Irving Babbit wrote:
We now live in a completely different universe where if one can't run at least sub 2:08 one isn't anywhere.[quote]
Which means that there is exactly one American (Hall) who is "anywhere" ... and that was a while ago. (KK was obviously in this category too... but he's not competing any more.)
Is Hall still competing?
Aghast wrote:
You are misinformed. You do use fat during the marathon however for fast runners the vast majority of energy comes through glycogen stores and lipid metabolism plays a much smaller role. Training allows you to become more efficient at storing and utilizing glycogen. See below:
L.L. Spriet (2007) Regulation of Substrate Use During the Marathon. Sports Medicine, Volume 37, Numbers 4-5, 2007 , pp. 332-336(5)
Elite athletes run marathons at speeds requiring between 80% and 90% V-dotO2max, and finish in times between 2:05:00 and 2:20:00. They are highly adapted to oxidise fat and must do so during training. However, they compete at such high running speeds, that CHO oxidation (also highly adapted) may be the exclusive source of energy while racing.
MJ O'BRIEN, CA VIGUIE, RS Mazzeo (1993) Carbohydrate dependence during marathon running Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise Volume 25 (9).
...Therefore, total body glycogen stores were made available for combustion. All classes of energy substrates participate, but carbohydrate, not lipid, is the primary fuel for marathon running.
GA Brooks, Importance of the 'crossover'concept in exercise metabolism (1997) Clinical and Experimental Pharmacology and Physiology
SUMMARY
1. The ‘crossover’ concept is a model of substrate supply during exercise which makes the following predictions.
2. Lipid is the major fuel (approximatel. 60%) for non-contracting skeletal muscle and the body at rest.
3. Energy flux, as determined by exercise intensity, is the major factor in determining the balance of substrate utilization during exercise. Thus, moderate and greater exercise intensities increase contraction-induced muscle glycogenosis and glycolysis, increase recruitment of fast-twitch muscle fibres, increase sympathetic nervous system activity and down-regulate mitochondrial fatty acid uptake.
4. Glycogen and glucose utilization scales exponentially to relative exercise power output with a greater gain in glycogen than in glucose use at high power. The relationship between free fatty acid flux and power output is an inverted hyperbola. Consequently, at high power outputs, the role of lipid oxidation is diminished.
5. Factors such as endurance training, energy supply, as influenced by dietary manipulation, and prior exercise play secondary roles in determining the balance of substrate utilization during exercise.
6. Comparisons of the metabolic responses in subjects engaged in activities requiring vastly different metabolic rates or comparisons of subjects of different gender, age or training status require normalization of data to total energy flux.
Aghast, you are the one who is misinformed. You only have ot look at lactate levels and Respiratory exchange ratio, to see that a significant proportion of fat is being metabolized by elite athletes in Marathons. 30% or so.
Don't assume that the faster the race, the less fat is being metabolized.
Aghast wrote:
You are misinformed. You do use fat during the marathon however for fast runners the vast majority of energy comes through glycogen stores and lipid metabolism plays a much smaller role. Training allows you to become more efficient at storing and utilizing glycogen. See below:
L.L. Spriet (2007) Regulation of Substrate Use During the Marathon. Sports Medicine, Volume 37, Numbers 4-5, 2007 , pp. 332-336(5)
Elite athletes run marathons at speeds requiring between 80% and 90% V-dotO2max, and finish in times between 2:05:00 and 2:20:00. They are highly adapted to oxidise fat and must do so during training. However, they compete at such high running speeds, that CHO oxidation (also highly adapted) may be the exclusive source of energy while racing.
MJ O'BRIEN, CA VIGUIE, RS Mazzeo (1993) Carbohydrate dependence during marathon running Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise Volume 25 (9).
...Therefore, total body glycogen stores were made available for combustion. All classes of energy substrates participate, but carbohydrate, not lipid, is the primary fuel for marathon running.
GA Brooks, Importance of the 'crossover'concept in exercise metabolism (1997) Clinical and Experimental Pharmacology and Physiology
SUMMARY
1. The ‘crossover’ concept is a model of substrate supply during exercise which makes the following predictions.
2. Lipid is the major fuel (approximatel. 60%) for non-contracting skeletal muscle and the body at rest.
3. Energy flux, as determined by exercise intensity, is the major factor in determining the balance of substrate utilization during exercise. Thus, moderate and greater exercise intensities increase contraction-induced muscle glycogenosis and glycolysis, increase recruitment of fast-twitch muscle fibres, increase sympathetic nervous system activity and down-regulate mitochondrial fatty acid uptake.
4. Glycogen and glucose utilization scales exponentially to relative exercise power output with a greater gain in glycogen than in glucose use at high power. The relationship between free fatty acid flux and power output is an inverted hyperbola. Consequently, at high power outputs, the role of lipid oxidation is diminished.
5. Factors such as endurance training, energy supply, as influenced by dietary manipulation, and prior exercise play secondary roles in determining the balance of substrate utilization during exercise.
6. Comparisons of the metabolic responses in subjects engaged in activities requiring vastly different metabolic rates or comparisons of subjects of different gender, age or training status require normalization of data to total energy flux.
J.O. wrote:You have no idea. Fat is a very important fuel in Marathon running. The more fat you can metabolize at race pace, the more glycogen you can conserve for when it's time to start racing, at around 20 miles.
Ummm... some common sense. The longer (and slower) the race, the more fat you use. Obviously zero fat is used in the sprints. Granted a 2:10 marathoner will use less % of fat than a 4 hour marathoner, but nonetheless it does come into play. Runners used to talk about "hitting the wall" at around the 20 mile mark back in the day which was believed to represent depletion of your glycogen stores. For some reason "hitting the wall" is rarely discussed in this day and age. Maybe the break through in faster times convinced people this was more of a psychological barrier?
Sub 2:10 marathoners burn more fat, not less.
The percentage of fat is less than slow runners, but the amount of fat utilized is greater.