Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context

Calm down .......Ladies

mr speedy wrote:

Ritz is the best high shool XC runner ever, period. When Lukas wins by a margin of 20 seconds to beat out a guy like Webb and wins a bronze medal at junior cross maybe he will be close

I agree, Mr Rockford Files himself was a monster, and don\'t forget that crazy 3rd place at Worlds!

free beer wrote:

I have a videotape of the ESPN broad cast of the 1985 race. The two favorites were Rueben Reina and John Trautman, the previous years runner-up who would run 8:05 for 3000 in the spring. Also in the race was Mark Dani 8:49 indoor two mile, Marc Davis the next years' champ, the Mastalir Brothers (4:04, 8:07, 8:44 3200 ansd 14:01) and John Hume who would run close to 14:50 at the 85 race.

The pace was modest at the mile, 4:40, but Troy Maddux pushed the second mile hard.

Reina won by a lot, I think 10 seconds at least, and broke the course record by 15 seconds.

Reina (14:36.8) only won by a little less than 5 seconds over Mark Mastalir (14:41.3). There were 9 guys under 15 flat and a total of 15 of them under 15:10 (with Trautmann in 15th - from what I recall, he was pretty sick from the time of his regional up through nationals - otherwise, I think he may've been fighting for those spots between 3rd and 9th (14:50-14:56).

Nice try but no, not really.

Your ridiculous use of the class terms (freshman, soph, etc) when LV is simply a year older than everyone else is disingenuous at best and betrays your obvious bias.

LV belongs in the discussion among all time HS bests. But to think that a win over a lame field at FL this year provides any meaningful data for the discussion is simply brain dead. And placing him ahead of Ritz, Virgin, et al is really not very intelligent.

Tanya Skagle wrote:

Here is the way it is wrote:

No, he left out a "have" between "would" and "destroyed." He also incorrectly replaced a "have" with an "of" between "would" and "been".

Aw, crap, really? I of been saying it wrong my whole life and since I took it for granite all these years, I guess I'm libel to keep doing it. Looks like I've got a ways to go, expecially since I might be suffering from Old Timer's disease before too long. I guess it's a mute point now, but for all intensive purposes, my English teachers should of corrected me but they let me off Scott free. Well, it's a no-holes-barred, doggy dog world out there and finally learning this could be a blessing in the skies. Irregardless, I could care less. But that's a whole nother story.

TanyaSkagle your phonetic prowess did not go unnoticed.

[quote]TrackCoach wrote:

Assuming Lukas wins Footlocker on Saturday, I think there will be enough data to make the case for placing him over Pre, Virgin and Ritz, notice I have removed Reina and Solinsky, etc., from the discussion. The difficult person to compare is Gerry Lindgren, who predated the national meet."

The Kinney (Footlocker) meet started in 1979. So that not only predated Lindgren, but also Pre, Virgin, Nelson, Hunt, and Hulst. The cross country seasons were set up different before 1979(California didn't even have a state meet until 1989), so you didn't have the big showcase races like they have now. The standard course lengths also have changed though the years, so many of these guys ran on two mile courses (the standard three mile course started in 1977). So Lukas and Lutz should be compared to guy's like Ritz, Solinsky, Reina, ect., since they are from an era of a standarized national meet.

People keep mentioning the fact that Lukas hasn't beat a strong field; he has no control over who shows up and this year he choose to run both national meets, therefore every kid had a shot at him.

Half a dozen kids from this year's NXN has broke the records or is in the top 3 on every major course they ran on and their track PRs (800/mile/3k/3kSC/2-mile/5k/10k) on average are the best from any national cross country meet except for 1986,2001 and 2008. Just about all of the top kids in the NXN race has run 4:10/9:00 of better and they still have an indor and outdoor track season left.

The only athlete Lukas has not beat in a XC race is Joe Rosa, but he beat the athletes who beat him.

Also keep in mind that the athletes that predate the national meet like Lindgren, Pre and Virgin; no one knows for sure how they would have done if they had raced into December and against the best U.S. H.S. athletes. Every year there is a kid breaking course records and setting the world on fire until they run against the other best kids; we saw this with Gregorek, Trautmann, Powell, Web, Hall, Rupp, Centrowitz, Fernandez and Rosa. Running fast and beating your competition are two different things and Lukas has done both.

My 2cents:

Abdirizak Mohamud has to be in the top 5. He won FL twice and was the greatest XC runner in the 90's. Only 2 guys won FL twice: Ritz and him and that was when there was no NXN. He also beat many Olympians during his time like Torres and Riley (to name a few).

Any list without him in the top 5 is BS.

Mohamud is also perhaps the greatest runner/pack-a-day smoker of all time. I don't know if he really did smoke, but that was the rumor at the time. He was ridiculous. But I agree with you, the top five has to be some order of Pre, Lindgren, Ritz, Virgin, and Mohamud. But if LV wins Footlockers, he's got to be up there, too, and I think Mohamud would have to get the boot from the top 5.

flnc wrote:

My 2cents:

Abdirizak Mohamud has to be in the top 5. He won FL twice and was the greatest XC runner in the 90's. Only 2 guys won FL twice: Ritz and him and that was when there was no NXN. He also beat many Olympians during his time like Torres and Riley (to name a few).

Any list without him in the top 5 is BS.

Winning the meet twice is huge but I wouldn't put much stock in who he beat if they were juniors. Oftentimes there's a huge difference. His era was during the rock bottom days of high school boys distance. He didn't run any startling times either. He isn't among the top 50 if you're going to have a serious discussion of the greatest boys distance runners all time so I couldn't put him top 5 for cross country.

TrackCoach wrote:

Also keep in mind that the athletes that predate the national meet like Lindgren, Pre and Virgin; no one knows for sure how they would have done if they had raced into December and against the best U.S. H.S. athletes. Every year there is a kid breaking course records and setting the world on fire until they run against the other best kids; we saw this with Gregorek, Trautmann, Powell, Web, Hall, Rupp, Centrowitz, Fernandez and Rosa. Running fast and beating your competition are two different things and Lukas has done both.

I know Gregorek competed at the '79 World Junior XCs, but did he compete at '77 and/or '78 junior XC Nationals (while he was still in high school)?

sineCosine wrote:

TanyaSkagle your phonetic prowess did not go unnoticed.

Heterographs and mondegreens always illicit arise out of the pedants.

[

Top places by US high school runners in the world Jr. meet.

1st. Rich Kimball 1974

1st. Eric Hulst 1976

1st. Thom Hunt 1977

4th. Jeff Nelson 1979

3rd. Ritz 2001[/quote]

5th. Tegenkamp 2001

Tanya Skagle wrote:

sineCosine wrote:

TanyaSkagle your phonetic prowess did not go unnoticed.

Heterographs and mondegreens always illicit arise out of the pedants.

You had me at blessing in the skies.

Yeah, Jon Riley sucked. Mohamud won Footlockers as a junior and Riley was a senior. Check the results from 1996 and 1997, you'll recognize plenty of names. Certainly not the "rock bottom days" of boys distance, it was the beginning of the renaissance. Riley ran 3:43 that spring.

dean moriarty wrote:

Yeah, Jon Riley sucked. Mohamud won Footlockers as a junior and Riley was a senior. Check the results from 1996 and 1997, you'll recognize plenty of names. Certainly not the "rock bottom days" of boys distance, it was the beginning of the renaissance. Riley ran 3:43 that spring.

I agree...the late 90ss is when things started to come around, remember Riley/Jennings/Powell/Sanchez/Hartman are from the late 90s.

Teg wasn't in high school in 2001.

World Jr's is any age above 16 and below 20.

Illicit? REALLY? Who the hell posts passive-aggressive rants about grammar and spelling and then doesn't know when to use 'elicit'? Get a dictionary, and a life.