YMMV wrote:
Kszczot wrote:
Who is more suspicious of being a cheat, Cierpinski or Griffith-Joyner?
People are more suspicious of the East Germans than Americans.
When I think "doping in the '80s", FloJo is the first name that comes to mind. Yes, even before Ben Johnson.
Track & Field News (unintenionally?) published before and after pictures of Flo Jo next to each other, one while at UCLA ,the other under the guidance of Bobby Kersee......SHAZAM! Muscles just popped.
Thanks for that. I knew there were East German's who'd done well that I wasn't remembering. But as you say, the big successes and medals for the DDR generally did not come in the distance events. Someone else mentioned Jurgen Haase, who I should have remembered. But they never had the really big time era that a handful of other small countries had and none of those countries had the organized system that the DDR did. And nothing ever came out about their training methods that suggested they were "ten years ahead" of what everyone else was doing. Siegfried Hermann was not doing anything different from what other Europeans of his time was and honestly, Cierpinski's training as described here didn't look very different from what Bill Squires was doing.
HRE wrote:
Obviously what Cierpinski did worked very well. But if the East Germans were, as the quote says, ten years ahead of all other nations with regard to effective training methods, and I'd even include doping methods here, it seems that they should have produced more top level distance runners than they did . They did well for a country their size but that happens now and again (New Zealand, Hungary, Finland). But I think the only other world class marathoner they produced was Eckhard Lesse whose best was 2:12, I believe, a time which plenty of runners from countries that were not ten years ahead of all others were running. Below the marathon there was Werner Schildhauer in the 10,000, Olaf Beyer in the 800, and years earlier Jurgen May in the 1500 and 5,000. May was a big "Lydiard" guy,the East Germans were very fond of Lydiard and brought him to the country more than once.
But you can't simply look at one big success and say the person who had it had it because his training was better than everyone else's. At the time a lot of Shorter's success in the marathon was attributed to the fact that he did NOT train like a marathoner but rather like a track man who also ran enough miles to do well at marathons and whose track training allowed him to toss in a sub 4:40 mile here and there which his competitors, who were not track men couldn't match. And Shorter was not physically whole in Montreal. He had trouble with his foot which was the beginning of the end for him. He was never the same runner after Montreal as he'd been before.
So yes, maybe Cierpinski used drugs and that was the reason he was able to beat Shorter. Or maybe it was because everyone who thought training like a track guy was the key were wrong that and training like a marathoner really was the answer after all, that it was Shorter had been the outlier. Or maybe Cierpinski was ascending at a time when Shorter was descending. Given what went on in East Germany you have to consider seriously the idea that he drugged his way to a win. But there were stories at the time which said he was really an outsider within the DDR's sport system and sometimes at odds with officials for his preference for going his own way. So maybe not using drugs was part of going his own way. He has not had the kinds of physical issues that many of the drugged DDR athletes have had in later life.
Cierpinski lapped here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmgMo0LHAZo&list=PLl1OLT-Ne5k42sd5uCC371Yu1QOqQkvtDRight - Bauman was busted bigtime. Like the Turkish female milers....The ones who took 1st and 2nd in the last Olympics? Correct me if I'm wrong..
Monte wrote:
Right - Bauman was busted bigtime. Like the Turkish female milers....The ones who took 1st and 2nd in the last Olympics? Correct me if I'm wrong..
Cierpinski ended up finishing 4th in the 1978 EC marathon.
Not sure why he ran the 10000m, when he could have won the marathon gold.
mahmood wrote:
HRE wrote:
Obviously what Cierpinski did worked very well. But if the East Germans were, as the quote says, ten years ahead of all other nations with regard to effective training methods, and I'd even include doping methods here, it seems that they should have produced more top level distance runners than they did . They did well for a country their size but that happens now and again (New Zealand, Hungary, Finland). But I think the only other world class marathoner they produced was Eckhard Lesse whose best was 2:12, I believe, a time which plenty of runners from countries that were not ten years ahead of all others were running. Below the marathon there was Werner Schildhauer in the 10,000, Olaf Beyer in the 800, and years earlier Jurgen May in the 1500 and 5,000. May was a big "Lydiard" guy,the East Germans were very fond of Lydiard and brought him to the country more than once.
But you can't simply look at one big success and say the person who had it had it because his training was better than everyone else's. At the time a lot of Shorter's success in the marathon was attributed to the fact that he did NOT train like a marathoner but rather like a track man who also ran enough miles to do well at marathons and whose track training allowed him to toss in a sub 4:40 mile here and there which his competitors, who were not track men couldn't match. And Shorter was not physically whole in Montreal. He had trouble with his foot which was the beginning of the end for him. He was never the same runner after Montreal as he'd been before.
So yes, maybe Cierpinski used drugs and that was the reason he was able to beat Shorter. Or maybe it was because everyone who thought training like a track guy was the key were wrong that and training like a marathoner really was the answer after all, that it was Shorter had been the outlier. Or maybe Cierpinski was ascending at a time when Shorter was descending. Given what went on in East Germany you have to consider seriously the idea that he drugged his way to a win. But there were stories at the time which said he was really an outsider within the DDR's sport system and sometimes at odds with officials for his preference for going his own way. So maybe not using drugs was part of going his own way. He has not had the kinds of physical issues that many of the drugged DDR athletes have had in later life.
Cierpinski lapped here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmgMo0LHAZo&list=PLl1OLT-Ne5k42sd5uCC371Yu1QOqQkvtD
Cierpinski ended up finishing 4th in the 1978 EC marathon.
Not sure why he ran the 10000m, when he could have won the marathon gold.
Monte wrote:
Right - Bauman was busted bigtime. Like the Turkish female milers....The ones who took 1st and 2nd in the last Olympics? Correct me if I'm wrong..
Not the last Olympics but London; Turk's Aslı Çakır Alptekin (Gold) & Gamze Bulut (Silver). Both were stripped of the medals and sanctioned for ABP hematological anomalies.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-olympics-rio-athletics-1500-idUSKCN100331Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:
Monte wrote:
Right - Bauman was busted bigtime. Like the Turkish female milers....The ones who took 1st and 2nd in the last Olympics? Correct me if I'm wrong..
Not the last Olympics but London; Turk's Aslı Çakır Alptekin (Gold) & Gamze Bulut (Silver). Both were stripped of the medals and sanctioned for ABP hematological anomalies.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-olympics-rio-athletics-1500-idUSKCN100331
I love the photo of this race with all the dirties edited out and it's like Rowbury and some poor girl coming last.
Flo Jo, Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong -- all looking for the easy, cheating way out of it.... They're a utterly disgrace to their sports.
What ever happed to old fashioned hard work ?...
Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa in U.S. baseball....their records were erased from the books due to "Juicing". Chris Benoit in U.S. pro wrestling: Got "Roid Rage" and killed his family then killed himself in the same five minute span. What a shame and what a pity to the surviving friends and family.
Great job and thanks subway surfer....I know those Turkish ladies ran the equivalent of a 4:15 mile or so....extremely fast....But as you said, they were stripped of their medals like the Chinese woman of the nineties I believe....when they were running 30 min 10 kms.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:
Not the last Olympics but London; Turk's Aslı Çakır Alptekin (Gold) & Gamze Bulut (Silver). Both were stripped of the medals and sanctioned for ABP hematological anomalies.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-olympics-rio-athletics-1500-idUSKCN100331I love the photo of this race with all the dirties edited out and it's like Rowbury and some poor girl coming last.
Wasn't Maryam Yusuf Jamal awarded the gold for this race?
Was she ever under suspicion for using PED? Besides for running for Bahrain.
GDR wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
I love the photo of this race with all the dirties edited out and it's like Rowbury and some poor girl coming last.
Wasn't Maryam Yusuf Jamal awarded the gold for this race?
Was she ever under suspicion for using PED? Besides for running for Bahrain.
Yes...Jamal was elevated from bronze to gold. I'm not aware of Jamal ever under suspicion for any doping. However, Tomashova was elevated from 4th to silver - and she had served a doping ban back in 08 (2008 -10) for manipulating drug samples. 5th place Abeba Aregawi was elevated to the bronze. And remember she was the one that was initially banned for testing positive for meldonium in 2016 but was reinstated before actually serving any ban.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sport-doping-sweden-aregawi/aregawi-has-doping-ban-lifted-hopes-to-make-olympics-idUSKCN0ZU2CCFallout From London wrote:
GDR wrote:
Wasn't Maryam Yusuf Jamal awarded the gold for this race?
Was she ever under suspicion for using PED? Besides for running for Bahrain.
Yes...Jamal was elevated from bronze to gold. I'm not aware of Jamal ever under suspicion for any doping. However, Tomashova was elevated from 4th to silver - and she had served a doping ban back in 08 (2008 -10) for manipulating drug samples. 5th place Abeba Aregawi was elevated to the bronze. And remember she was the one that was initially banned for testing positive for meldonium in 2016 but was reinstated before actually serving any ban.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sport-doping-sweden-aregawi/aregawi-has-doping-ban-lifted-hopes-to-make-olympics-idUSKCN0ZU2CC
On February 29, 2016, the Swedish Athletics Federation stated that Abeba had tested positive for the substance (meldonium) in January 2016.[15] She was provisionally suspended from competing the same day.[15] In July 2016, the Swedish Doping Commission lifted her suspension due to insufficient evidence on how long the drug - which was prohibited only January 2016 - takes to be excreted from the body.[16]
Looks like it was a technicality.
Shannon Rowbury probably deserves the silver medal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNCK_PWtOoEPorkie wrote:
YMMV wrote:
When I think "doping in the '80s", FloJo is the first name that comes to mind. Yes, even before Ben Johnson.
Track & Field News (unintenionally?) published before and after pictures of Flo Jo next to each other, one while at UCLA ,the other under the guidance of Bobby Kersee......SHAZAM! Muscles just popped.
State plan 14.25 page 105 from the Stasi archive I believe is the document you want.
Schildhauer and Kunze were multiple Championship medallists. In 83 WC they finished 2d and 3d between Cova and Vainio both of whom are believed to have been blood dopers. They ran 27.24 and 27.26 for 10000m. Jorg Peter ran a 2.08 marathon.
Gimmelwald wrote:
State plan 14.25 page 105 from the Stasi archive I believe is the document you want.
Is there a link or something where the actual document can be looked at? What I'm curious about is there a specific doping regime/cycle that supposedly Cierpinski appears on or his name only listed as being part of the GDR PED program back then?
Gimmelwald wrote:
Schildhauer and Kunze were multiple Championship medallists. In 83 WC they finished 2d and 3d between Cova and Vainio both of whom are believed to have been blood dopers. They ran 27.24 and 27.26 for 10000m. Jorg Peter ran a 2.08 marathon.
I wonder why East Germany didn't have more good marathon runners.
Nike wrote:
I wonder why East Germany didn't have more good marathon runners.
Here is one plausible explanation -- The population of GDR was something like a fraction of one percent of the world population in the 1970's. If their 14.25 program gave only marginal benefit for endurance runners, there should've been at most a handful of international elite level East German runners.
Nike wrote:
Gimmelwald wrote:
Schildhauer and Kunze were multiple Championship medallists. In 83 WC they finished 2d and 3d between Cova and Vainio both of whom are believed to have been blood dopers. They ran 27.24 and 27.26 for 10000m. Jorg Peter ran a 2.08 marathon.
I wonder why East Germany didn't have more good marathon runners.
Tom Osler commented on this in his last book, "Serious Runners' Manual" or some such title. His quote was something like "the men in the white lab coats will never out perform an enjoyable run in the forest." I don't have either the title or the quote completely accurate but his point was that they were overly analytical and missed the enjoyable more artistic aspect to running marathons. I liked that quote, whatever it actually was.