Comparing Maggie to a 800 meter guy with a base 400 speed of 48 is an insult. She ran 53.86 in college from a standing start and was most likely faster than that at the start of her competitive season this year. You guys aren't getting it...this gal is untapped. She is an animal alright! Now that she's hungry look out.
UK, you always pop up as an apologist for suspected drug cheats.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Out of 10 runners, 4 ran PR's and 4 ran season best, the other 2 both dipped did sub 2 and one of those was a fraction off her pr
The race was obviously at the right pace and in ideal conditions. So the improvement isn't as big as it looks
I knew a guy knocked 2 seconds of his pr at age 30 and he was a junior international so had all those years to get it right, but took it him even longer
http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=949Before you ask, no way was he on drugs, I trained with him for a while & was always amazed he wasn't doing better in races as we was something else
Get behind you runners, I thought it was us Brits who were supposed to be cynical!
Boschenaar wrote:
Comparing Maggie to a 800 meter guy with a base 400 speed of 48 is an insult. She ran 53.86 in college from a standing start and was most likely faster than that at the start of her competitive season this year. You guys aren't getting it...this gal is untapped. She is an animal alright! Now that she's hungry look out.
A man who runs 48 is within 4.9 of the men's world record. A woman at 53.86 is 6.26 over the women's world record. So, in relative terms, a 48 second male runner is superior to a 53.86 woman 400 meter runner.
I really don't get the blind spot. Simply, 53.86 doesn't project the level of speed for 1:57.84.
she ran the 53.86 IN COLLEGE. watching her pop off 200s in that video, i think that it is fairly safe to assume that she can run a faster 400 today than what she did in college.
moreover, i knew plenty of guys with less than 53.8 400 speed who could run 1:57 with a 57/60 or 58/59. are you that clueless that you think that you need 50 flat 400 speed to run a 1:57?
Umm, if you saw my previous post... she ran 53.61 at a local all comers meet in the bay area a bit more than a month ago.
um, which proves my guess that she could run a 400 faster now than in college.
In DRF, Jack Daniels gives the 400 PR association for a 1:56.6 runner as 53.0. She is capable of both right now, IMO.
Yea I know. I was just saying that she HAS run faster outside of college. A lot of people just don't know her new 400 PR because she ran it at a low-key all comers meet (I saw the race... she looked very smooth as usual).
Vessey's coach, Greg Brock, placed 5th at the 1972 US Olympic Trials. Perhaps, he finally talked to into cranking out the miles. With her 400 meter and 200 meter times, a 1:57.85 is not out of the question. A high mileage approach worked for Peter Snell.
here's the 800 from the olympic trials--http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW5hTl7Ca4M
vessey has an insane kick (fastest last 200 by a full second)
i think this improvement was just a question of getting into fast races and not being afraid of going out with the field (which she's still learning)
Women do not convert 53's to 1:57's anymore than the convert 55's to 2:01' or 57's to 2:04 or 59's to 2:09. That's what guys do.
Daniels is talking about men, not women.
Here's a clue for you, the women's world record for 400 meters is 4.47 seconds slower than the men's, the women's world record for 800 meters is over 12 seconds slower than the men's. Got it? Women do not convert 400 speed to the 800 as efficiently as men do.
SO, HOW DO YOU GUYS THINK VESSEY WILL DO AT WORLDS?
Graceland wrote:
Vessey's coach, Greg Brock, placed 5th at the 1972 US Olympic Trials. Perhaps, he finally talked to into cranking out the miles. With her 400 meter and 200 meter times, a 1:57.85 is not out of the question. A high mileage approach worked for Peter Snell.
I'd forgotten that, I thought he was near elite, but clearly he was elite USA at the time.
I knew Greg for sometime in the 70's and 80's -- and the Greg Brock I knew woulda kicked any athletes ass that he found using drugs, turned them in himself, and thrown him off his team / club.
No way, no how Maggie is on PEDs.
I think the real story is that she has finally gotten it all together, training, understanding how to race, the confidence to go for it etc.
And, I am sure Greg is a pretty fair coach too...
Mutola converted 52/53 to 1:55 consistently. I'd say DRF is right on and has been for the women I've coached for the 800.
So you are saying that Anna Willard could run what, 52 seconds for 400 right now? Thanks for the laugh!
Vessey is going to run faster....In most of her races she is coasting near the end and does nothing until the last 200 meters...this time she had a shorter eslaped time of coasting......but still let every one pass her from the 300 to 500 meter mark......At some point she will be able stay strong for the whole race, then look out!....she has these priods when she is just coasting and doesn't seem to be racing....even in this race if she could of mantained running the front pack a little longer she could of run faster...yep...vessey is for real!...and fun to watch, listen to and watch celebrate...love that yelp and the end...with big a celebrated yes!
Women do not convert 400m speed to 800m speed equally either. Take a look at the following 400m vs 800m bests of these gals:
Jarmila Kratochvilova 47.99 1:53.28 (8.650/lap slower)
Jearl Miles-Clark 49.40 1:56.40 (8.800/lap slower)
Ana Quirot 49.61 1:54.44 (7.610/lap slower)
Maria Mutola 51.37 1:55.19 (6.225/lap slower)
Ludmila Formanova 51.84 1:56.56 (6.440/lap slower)
Stephanie Graf 52.69 1:56.64 (5.630/lap slower)
Pam Jelimo 52.78 1:54.01 (4.225/lap slower)
Meridith Valmon 53.25 1:57.04 (5.270/lap slower)
Christine Wachtel 54.36 1:55.32 (3.300/lap slower)
Jolanda Ceplak 54.67 1:55.19 (2.925/lap slower)
Maggie Vessey 53.61 1:57.84 (5.310/lap slower)
Vessey and Pam Jelimo seem not to fit as nicely into the chart. So, really how fast is Maggie in the 400? and how much would you add per lap to her 400m time? I say 52.8 and add 5.50 seconds for a nice 1:56.6
Thanks for the detailed info, Boschenaar. Maggie fits right in the middle of the range (2.9-8.8 sec), as I suspected (note I ordinated the list by slowdown per lap). Her performance is perfectly normal in relation to her 400 times. Next quibble, please.
Boschenaar wrote:
Women do not convert 400m speed to 800m speed equally either. Take a look at the following 400m vs 800m bests of these gals:
Jearl Miles-Clark 49.40 1:56.40 (8.800/lap slower-considered herself primarily a 400 runner)
Jarmila Kratochvilova 47.99 1:53.28 (8.650/lap slower)
Ana Quirot 49.61 1:54.44 (7.610/lap slower)
Maria Mutola 51.37 1:55.19 (6.225/lap slower)
Ludmila Formanova 51.84 1:56.56 (6.440/lap slower)
Stephanie Graf 52.69 1:56.64 (5.630/lap slower)
Maggie Vessey 53.61 1:57.84 (5.310/lap slower)
Meridith Valmon 53.25 1:57.04 (5.270/lap slower)
Pam Jelimo 52.78 1:54.01 (4.225/lap slower)
Christine Wachtel 54.36 1:55.32 (3.300/lap slower)
Jolanda Ceplak 54.67 1:55.19 (2.925/lap slower)
Boschenaar and BN, thanks for detailed info.
Maybe some people will begin to understand there are no set formulas in sports that work all the time. Patterns, yes. Forecastable, repetitive patterns, yes. But not some cushy, one size fits all formulas that you can use to explain all of the running world.
And lets be greatful for that. Self-amazement has got to be a unique gift to watch. Somewhat like growing up. Like hey, i just did what??
This one for Ms Vessey. And yeah, it is a bit dated and soft... and somewhat like an amazing run it has these wonderful changes of pace, without taking away from the overall harmony. From screaming to whispering. Funny enough it has to do with family.
I know, i know i can be a little soft. Just like the bottom of strong my feet.
Maggie be proud.
the point could be wrote:
Boschenaar and BN, thanks for detailed info.
Maybe some people will begin to understand there are no set formulas in sports that work all the time. Patterns, yes. Forecastable, repetitive patterns, yes. But not some cushy, one size fits all formulas that you can use to explain all of the running world.
And lets be greatful for that. Self-amazement has got to be a unique gift to watch. Somewhat like growing up. Like hey, i just did what??
This one for Ms Vessey. And yeah, it is a bit dated and soft... and somewhat like an amazing run it has these wonderful changes of pace, without taking away from the overall harmony. From screaming to whispering. Funny enough it has to do with family.
I know, i know i can be a little soft. Just like the bottom of strong my feet.
Maggie be proud.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm2YyVZBL8U
I think you nailed it here. The world is getting to hard.
Maggie is a reminder of what can happen if you keep keep keep trying and coming back and giving it a go...
"Maggie I'm Amazed," should be the song's title.
I think she represents the dream in so many of us...that if we just work hard enough, that we someday may get there, that we someday may make the mark.
And she did!
For some negative, jealous, small minded people...well to see something so inspiring in such jaded times...
It is just too inspiring for their jaded selves.
Maggie made me a fan, and knowing some people around her, I believe her achievement is 100% honest.
That said, it will be a different kettle of fish to run trials and finals, but she made the USA Oly finals, so we will see...
I posted this on another thread, which, I can't seem to find now. O can't imagine why the heck it was removed. My post was in response to accusations that Vessey was using PEDs because how could she improve so much so late in life. Here's what I said. It relates to your point about dreaming.
Vessey is 27. Let me tell you a story about another 27 year old. After good - but hardly great - h.s. and college running he 'retires' at 22 after finally achieving his big goal of breaking 9:00 for two miles. Comes back a couple years later and runs several races over two years - probably the best performance he has is a 2:19 marathon. Less than 10 months after that, he wins the bronze medal in the world cross country, outkicking the world's best miler, and, 6 weeks after that, runs the fourth best marathon of all time.
Given that, and compared to Vessey, this guy was, without a doubt, a big-time doper.
His name? Bill Rodgers.
I'm not naive about doping in T&F. But, I'm not going to become some McCarthy-ite paranoiac. There are some obvious dopers in our sport. Though it's not impossible she's on something, she's not one of them.
If I started to believe that no one could really make big improvements through a romantic commitment and blindingly hard work, then I would never watch sports again.