Tergat on why non-Africans lose

Hugo wrote:

You mean the 10.5 guy really would have been our next great 5K runner?

yes, that's absolutely what these morons are saying.

Stefano Baldini...Italian maestro. lol

Uh oh... wrote:

If you put the mind, determination, and grit of the average person on this thread into the body of Haile he would struggle to break 15.

Simply NOT TRUE. This person could break 15min with ease. he'd need to work reasonably hard to break 14m but couldnt get close to 13.

Physiology/talent has a HUGE part to play in your overall development as a runner.

And mopak, the East Africans didn't "suddenly" get better. They have easier access to outside travel and a better organized coaching/management system that makes it easier to be discovered and run abroad.

Tommy2Nutts wrote:

Uh oh... wrote:

If you put the mind, determination, and grit of the average person on this thread into the body of Haile he would struggle to break 15.

Simply NOT TRUE. This person could break 15min with ease. he'd need to work reasonably hard to break 14m but couldnt get close to 13.

Physiology/talent has a HUGE part to play in your overall development as a runner.

There is a self-reinforcing virtuous cycle at work as well. Win, you get more confidence, work harder, etc.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

If you can't see how far head talent-wise a Usain Bolt is or a K. Bekele is compared to sprinters or distance runners of european heritage than you are blind.

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What no one seems to ever point out is that the Ethiopians and Eritreans are racially different from Kenyans. Yes they are all Africans and their countries are adjacent, but physically they are very distinct.

The question then becomes, if the advantage is in fact physical, are there advantages shared between the two races and not with Western Europeans (ignoring Coe, Ovett, Cram, and others), or are these advantages environmental, such as being born and living at altitude, eating a better diet, being more active at a young age, etc?

Personally, given Ryan Hall's background growing up at altitude and focusing early on his 1500 speed (to moderate success, admittedly), I would argue more for the nature side, especially when you include the enclaves the Africans tend to train in. And for the extra motivation of bringing yourself out of abject poverty through running.

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This is very interesting and a good question. Could it be possible they both share and "African" trait such as for example unique muscle insertion points on lower leg and an increadible aerobic system.

You can't ignore genetics. I think its completely moronic to say that genetics don't play a role in the Eastern African dominance.

Now, having said that, there is no reason at all why anyone who makes an NCAA Division 1 final doesn't have the talent to compete at the world stage.

We have talented individuals... just not at as high a proportion relative to the total population that Kenya or Ethiopia have. So what? We certainly have enough talent to have 10 guys who can run 2:06 or better. We should have 20 guys running 2:09 or better.

Every 13:45 5k guy should be able to do that with proper training and years of sacrafice. But let's say you ran 60-70 miles a week in college and have a good degree and ran 13:45. Why would you pass up a good job to go and run for another 5+ years, 100-120 miles a week? You probably wouldn't.

We also don't know how to train full time athletes. We know how to train athletes that are doing a million different things (studying and being college students).

I agree with Coach D in that we ignore speed way too much. You have to keep up with sprints and drills... even when marathon training. You can't ignore power, and American Distance runners definitely sacrifice power for distance.

You need to be able to train twice a day where you incorporate speed, power, aerobic and threshold work 4-5 times a week. Most Americans will never think they can handle that workload (or will be unwilling to stink the first year of doing that because of being way too tired to race well).

I 100% guarantee if you were to give me every 1500-10k NCAA D1 Finalist for 5 years, I could get 10 of them to the 2:04-6 level, 12:50-13:00 and 26:50-27:00 level.

If you gave me the counties top 20 milers and top 20 2-milers from high school graduation, I'm 100% confident I could do even better.

Outside of those athletes, though, the talent is not there.

BTW, the reason why Wejo improved so much in the 10k after college but not the marathon? Because he was running too slow. In order to do well in the 10k, he had to bump his mileage and slow his easy runs way down. This allowed him to build his endurance while also allowing him to crush track work.

But for the marathon its better to run moderately hard every day, with lots of MP and 1/2MP work. He lost that by slowing up his easy runs too much. You need lost of high-end aerobic work. Just thought I would throw that out there since I've been meaning to mention it since last week.

In a sense it is genetic because of body type -

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/bodytypeinformation.html

Obviously an ectomorph body type is most efficient for distance running. In places like the US there is a mix of people (and genetic traits). There are some non-African athletes built similarly to east Africans (like Hall, Rupp, etc.), but aren't as fast as the best Africans. Your average skinny high school runner has this body too, but aren't as fast. So then you have to factor in the other reasons like mentality, background, culture, etc.

100% guarantee if you were to give me every 1500-10k NCAA D1 Finalist for 5 years, I could get 10 of them to the 2:04-6 level, 12:50-13:00 and 26:50-27:00 level

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Your partly insane

WDDF wrote:

we ignore speed way too much. You have to keep up with sprints and drills...

I 100% guarantee if you were to give me every 1500-10k NCAA D1 Finalist for 5 years, I could get 10 of them to the 2:04-6 level, 12:50-13:00 and 26:50-27:00 level.

If you gave me the counties top 20 milers and top 20 2-milers from high school graduation, I'm 100% confident I could do even better.

That is utter nonsense.

Americans ARE as fast as the Africans, at short distances.

You have totally missed the point of this thread.

Hugo wrote:

Samoans are physically the same as Kenyans for example.

WRONG samoans have an over 95% obesity rate, kenya has less than a 5% obesity rate, samoans are usually big and strong (a very disproportionate number of samoans have become pro wrestlers). well if you look at kenyans not just the runners are USUALLY skinny (though there leaders are often heavy)

my guess is it is diet and life style. japanese people on average were 5-6 inches taller (and heavier) if living in Hawaii then japanese living in japan in a 1970's study, now that mcdonalds and more foreign foods are regularly sold in japan, the current japanese are on average significantly taller and heavier than their ancestors.

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

I bet Paula Radcliffe didn't care about genetics when she broke Catherine Ndereba's record and ran a faster marathon than a lot of men can run.

Got it in one. Paula Radcliffe must be one of the LEAST genetically gifted runners of all time. She has terrible technique, suffers from calf problems year-round (and has to wear compression socks) and is constantly beset by injury.

But she shows that hard work and the right training can overcome your DNA.

What I meant to say there was least genetically gifted runners to hold a world record

Tommy2Nutts wrote:

And mopak, the East Africans didn't "suddenly" get better. They have easier access to outside travel and a better organized coaching/management system that makes it easier to be discovered and run abroad.

During the 90s there was dramatic improvement by Kenyan, Ethiopian, Moroccan and to a lesser extent Algerian runners.

The reason for this may well have been easier access to travel and improved coaching /management, but there is simply NO denying there was dramatic improvement during this period. Without bothering to look up the record books I can tell you the "African" record for 800 improved at least 1 second. The 1500 and mile by 3 seconds. The 3000m by about 8 or 9 seconds, the steeple about the same. The 5000m by about 19 seconds. The 10000m by 50plus seconds.

Interestingly the marathon was the event that missed out on the giant leap forward. That seems to be happening now.

Hugo wrote:

Samoans are physically the same as Kenyans for example.

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WRONG samoans have an over 95% obesity rate, kenya has less than a 5% obesity rate, samoans are usually big and strong (a very disproportionate number of samoans have become pro wrestlers). well if you look at kenyans not just the runners are USUALLY skinny (though there leaders are often heavy)

my guess is it is diet and life style. japanese people on average were 5-6 inches taller (and heavier) if living in Hawaii then japanese living in japan in a 1970's study, now that mcdonalds and more foreign foods are regularly sold in japan, the current japanese are on average significantly

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Of course I was being facetious to prove a point.

JR... You my friend are wrong. American sprinters and middle distance runners are as fast as their Kenyan counterparts (or faster) but American distance runners are significantly slower.

I am not saying to forget about mileage. I am saying that American's shouldn't do the all or nothing approach. Our system is a pendulum. Swing way far to one side and only focus on speed (1990s) then swing way far to the other side and only focus on mileage (now). It has to stop somewhere in the middle. You need to have a balanced program where you focus on agility, power, strength, aerobic threshold, distance runs, etc.

Our 5k/10k guys should be running 80-100 miles a week with "workouts" 4-5 times a week. We may do the 80-100 (or more), but I would guess NEXT to none do "workouts" that frequently. How many guys do you think do all out 100s or even 50s and drills on a Monday morning, a tempo on a tuesday afternoon, a V02 Max session on Thur, hills and a long hard run on Sat and Sun? Very few. You may see the tempo and a V02Max workout, but not all of that, week in and week out (with morning runs, core, plyometrics thrown in there as well).

Marathon training in 2009 is not that much different. Just longer long runs, more mileage, and more MP and 1/2 MP work.

The speed comment was in regards to our 5k and 10k guys. Who are our top 10k guys? Rupp, Abdi, a healthy Meb, Ed Moran, Torres, Bauhs, Fasil? You're going to tell me these guys are as fast as their Kenyan 10k counterparts? That's ludicrous.

Goucher and Teg, when in 13:10 and 13:04 shape were also in 3:33-36 shape. They were doing the right mix of speed and strength and V02Max and Mileage to be as fast as their Kenyan friends. They had the speed angle that most American distance runners miss out on, and needed to continue to build their threshold capacity over a few healthy years to get down to 12:50-13:00 (while retaining the speed). Teg could still do it.

Outside of those 2 and Webb, I haven't seen any distance runner with the wheels to compete with the Africans. Not because they can't, but because they don't work at it. You gotta have the basic raw speed AND the mileage/V02Max/Threshold to compete... and that extends to the marathon.

Our marathoners are worse then our 10k guys with respect to working on speed.

The trick? Having the confidence you won't break down and literally doing nothing in between workouts other than resting. For years. 120 miles a week with anaerobic work and aerobic work is a recipe for disaster if you don't get the proper 12hours of rest a day. You tell me which of our marathoners rest that much every day? And if you can find one, I hope they're not trying to get thee mileage to 140, but instead are hanging around 120 and working on being a complete athlete.

All this pseudo-scientific talk about lactate threshold VO2max, aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity etc etc is not only bad science, but it completely misses the point that running is a skill and running fast for any distance, a greater skill.

There is no limit to how much you can develop these skills.

Running is NOT a skill.

That is NOT an intelligent post.

heyyo wrote:

malmo wrote:

If proof of lack of attitude by American kids is needed, all you have to do is read this message board. On any given day, the board will be flooded with training threads that are saturated with the whiny "I can't" attitude.

I agree. This thread is 3 pages of excuses.

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