1) Lets not do another Athing Mu, if Cooper likes the training, don't change it - not everyone likes milage, keep blasting 200m works for him.
2) Cooper is a speed 800m runner, I think 1500m would burn him out
3) I would like to see him run a 400m since he won't need to change his training. I would pick a 44 mid from him
Respectfully disagree with you.
Juantorena was a speed 800 guy. Lutkenhaus is more similar to Hoey. 800/1000 type
With all due respect, he ran like 21.8 - 200m in practice. Hoey ran like 3:29 last year in the 1500m. I don't see it for Lutkenhaus and that is perfectly fine. I didn't see it for Donavan Brazier, the most recent 800m prodigy (ran a 1:43.55, U20 record, until Cooper broke it). Cooper is much more similar to Donavan but has better speed.
Sumner could have been an excellent 800/1500 man as his parents ran 1500 and he had the build for it but he hit the speed training hard and ended up perennially injured.
Juantorena was a speed 800 guy. Lutkenhaus is more similar to Hoey. 800/1000 type
With all due respect, he ran like 21.8 - 200m in practice. Hoey ran like 3:29 last year in the 1500m. I don't see it for Lutkenhaus and that is perfectly fine. I didn't see it for Donavan Brazier, the most recent 800m prodigy (ran a 1:43.55, U20 record, until Cooper broke it). Cooper is much more similar to Donavan but has better speed.
I believe you underestimate Cooper's upward range. Provided there is an interest in running a quality 1500m, I believe you will see one from Lutkenhaus in the next 15mos. The HSR record should be very reachable.
As I said, I see the 1500m as his secondary event. Not the 400m.
(I agree with you that he can also run a great 400m)
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
The 800 doesn't have the same sizzle as the mile or 1500.
In the future, I would not be surprised if he goes longer for the money.
Based on this thread so far, the debate is whether he could be just as good in the 1500m as in the 800m. If not, there won’t be any money to be made from running the 1500m. His genetic range will make the decision for him as to what distances he should race.
That’s not the thread. Cooper’s best event is the 800m. He can’t be just as good in the 400m or the 1500m as he is in the 800m.
The thread is what is his potential in those off events.
With all due respect, he ran like 21.8 - 200m in practice. Hoey ran like 3:29 last year in the 1500m. I don't see it for Lutkenhaus and that is perfectly fine. I didn't see it for Donavan Brazier, the most recent 800m prodigy (ran a 1:43.55, U20 record, until Cooper broke it). Cooper is much more similar to Donavan but has better speed.
I believe you underestimate Cooper's upward range. Provided there is an interest in running a quality 1500m, I believe you will see one from Lutkenhaus in the next 15mos. The HSR record should be very reachable.
As I said, I see the 1500m as his secondary event. Not the 400m.
(I agree with you that he can also run a great 400m)
Agreed. If he wanted it. I’m of opinion he was already sub 4 in July when he ran his 1:42.
With all due respect, he ran like 21.8 - 200m in practice. Hoey ran like 3:29 last year in the 1500m. I don't see it for Lutkenhaus and that is perfectly fine. I didn't see it for Donavan Brazier, the most recent 800m prodigy (ran a 1:43.55, U20 record, until Cooper broke it). Cooper is much more similar to Donavan but has better speed.
I believe you underestimate Cooper's upward range. Provided there is an interest in running a quality 1500m, I believe you will see one from Lutkenhaus in the next 15mos. The HSR record should be very reachable.
As I said, I see the 1500m as his secondary event. Not the 400m.
(I agree with you that he can also run a great 400m)
If he were the same as Hoey, he'd be a 3:30 1500m right now (they both are the same caliber 800m runners). Maybe in the future the 1500m could be his secondary event, but as of right now he is more slightly more speed based, but really just a pure 800 runner like Rudisha.
I believe you underestimate Cooper's upward range. Provided there is an interest in running a quality 1500m, I believe you will see one from Lutkenhaus in the next 15mos. The HSR record should be very reachable.
As I said, I see the 1500m as his secondary event. Not the 400m.
(I agree with you that he can also run a great 400m)
If he were the same as Hoey, he'd be a 3:30 1500m right now (they both are the same caliber 800m runners). Maybe in the future the 1500m could be his secondary event, but as of right now he is more slightly more speed based, but really just a pure 800 runner like Rudisha.
I think its too early to tell if he's similar to Hoey or a Seb Coe or Steve Ovett type. Yes, he has his speed but its crazy to say he should be 3:30 1500 guy right when Josh is 26 years old and has had years to work on his aerobic strength and base.
This post was edited 39 seconds after it was posted.
I have no idea what his upside is in the 400m or 1500m, and neither does anyone else. We will see. But, in the finals he sure glided by everyone on the backstretch like they were standing still. And any 17-year-old who runs 1:46, 1:44, 1:44, three days in a row, and runs 4:06 as a soph, has shown no sign of limits on either end.
I believe you underestimate Cooper's upward range. Provided there is an interest in running a quality 1500m, I believe you will see one from Lutkenhaus in the next 15mos. The HSR record should be very reachable.
As I said, I see the 1500m as his secondary event. Not the 400m.
(I agree with you that he can also run a great 400m)
If he were the same as Hoey, he'd be a 3:30 1500m right now (they both are the same caliber 800m runners). Maybe in the future the 1500m could be his secondary event, but as of right now he is more slightly more speed based, but really just a pure 800 runner like Rudisha.
I did not say he was the same as Hoey. Said he was similar. Hoey was 25 when he ran 3:29.75. Lutkenhaus is 17. They are the same type runner though. Can run 600/800/1000.
I expect he will be able to bridge up to 1500 the way Krummenacker did. It was his secondary event as well.
If he were the same as Hoey, he'd be a 3:30 1500m right now (they both are the same caliber 800m runners). Maybe in the future the 1500m could be his secondary event, but as of right now he is more slightly more speed based, but really just a pure 800 runner like Rudisha.
I think its too early to tell if he's similar to Hoey or a Seb Coe or Steve Ovett type. Yes, he has his speed but its crazy to say he should be 3:30 1500 guy right when Josh is 26 years old and has had years to work on his aerobic strength and base.
Not an Ovett type. More like Hoey/Seb provided that is the goal. If he only trains for the 800, he will not have upward range. No idea what his team has in mind going forward but I doubt they see him as a 400/800 type.
Ovett was a 15/miler. Held 2mile WR for a little bit.
I think its too early to tell if he's similar to Hoey or a Seb Coe or Steve Ovett type. Yes, he has his speed but its crazy to say he should be 3:30 1500 guy right when Josh is 26 years old and has had years to work on his aerobic strength and base.
Not an Ovett type. More like Hoey/Seb provided that is the goal. If he only trains for the 800, he will not have upward range. No idea what his team has in mind going forward but I doubt they see him as a 400/800 type.
Ovett was a 15/miler. Held 2mile WR for a little bit.
Ovett was a bit successful on the true distance side of things. However, he had a 47.5 400m to his credit in an addition to being an 800 gold medalist that ran 1:44 when it was half a second off the world record. He was a legit 800/1500 guy at one time, and he definitely had real speed. His range was amazing. He was sort of unique with his versatility.
This post was edited 13 minutes after it was posted.
Interesting to see Coe as a teen. Scrawny kid. And a sub four miler to boot.
Yeah, the physical difference between Coe and Ovett at a similar age at that point is amazing. Ovett was more or less already a man with a beard, and Coe was a skinny kid. He strengthened a lot after working with George Gandy at Loughborough.
Cooper much more in the Ovett mode in terms of his physical maturity and strength.
Based on this thread so far, the debate is whether he could be just as good in the 1500m as in the 800m. If not, there won’t be any money to be made from running the 1500m. His genetic range will make the decision for him as to what distances he should race.
That’s not the thread. Cooper’s best event is the 800m. He can’t be just as good in the 400m or the 1500m as he is in the 800m.
The thread is what is his potential in those off events.
Yeah, you’re confirming that he does have a range. Many posters believe it extends to the 1500m and that he could even set a WR at that distance. And as I have said before, whatever his range is, different types of training will not change it one iota.
Can we get him to rabbit the eventual HS sub 4 attempt at Brooks PR? He could lead all the way through and also go sub 4 (and probably win and potentially break Webb's record).
That’s not the thread. Cooper’s best event is the 800m. He can’t be just as good in the 400m or the 1500m as he is in the 800m.
The thread is what is his potential in those off events.
Yeah, you’re confirming that he does have a range. Many posters believe it extends to the 1500m and that he could even set a WR at that distance. And as I have said before, whatever his range is, different types of training will not change it one iota.
Yeah, that would be ignoring past history. As others have mentioned, Brandon Miller was splitting 44.x and only ran a ~3:51 1500m in college. Switched to Brooks - has done a much different style training. And now ran 3:35 and may go faster this year.
And there was this one guy, sprinter in college running sub 22. Now ran one of those euro marathons in 2:10-2:11 forgot the actual time.
1) Lets not do another Athing Mu, if Cooper likes the training, don't change it - not everyone likes milage, keep blasting 200m works for him.
2) Cooper is a speed 800m runner, I think 1500m would burn him out
3) I would like to see him run a 400m since he won't need to change his training. I would pick a 44 mid from him
Respectfully disagree with you.
Juantorena was a speed 800 guy. Lutkenhaus is more similar to Hoey. 800/1000 type
In all fairness to Mr. Lutkenahause, you can't possibly say that with any real meaning behind it when at 16 years old he's dropped a 46.30 FAT while training for the 800m. On the other hand this also applies to the 1500m. When Lutkenhause is done with track one day he may very well run 44.x minimum, 1:41 minimum, and 3:46 for the mile, conservatively speaking.
He's still just turned 17. We need to look to generational world beaters such as Ryun for any comparison.
He's run 1:42 low, and has pretty clearly leveled up since then. 1:41 flat shape is not out of the question. He's finishing workouts with smooth looking 21high 200s, and his coach thinks he's in 44 second 400m shape. He's 17 and still maturing. He is clearly a very efficient runner, who keeps things in the hips and doesn't need to muscle things. He's long limbed. Shorter, stockier runners tend to be 400/800 types, but he covers the ground well.
That being said, he doesn't run a ton of mileage, and it's possible that his natural efficiency, bicarb, super spikes and some endurance training takes him to 800m fairly well, but not much beyond....at least for now. A lot of people are basing their 1500/mile predictions off of adults running 60-100 miles a week.
Very possible that his 400m/800m/1500m paces per 400m go 44,51...60. Which is fine...all the time in the world to move up later, if ever.
Juantorena was a speed 800 guy. Lutkenhaus is more similar to Hoey. 800/1000 type
In all fairness to Mr. Lutkenahause, you can't possibly say that with any real meaning behind it when at 16 years old he's dropped a 46.30 FAT while training for the 800m. On the other hand this also applies to the 1500m. When Lutkenhause is done with track one day he may very well run 44.x minimum, 1:41 minimum, and 3:46 for the mile, conservatively speaking.
He's still just turned 17. We need to look to generational world beaters such as Ryun for any comparison.
Yeah
That’s what makes this conversation so interesting.
As a sophomore, he ran 45.3r in April. He ran 46.30 60-90 min after a 1:47 solo. He profiles like an all time great in the 400m. So you can realistically say he’s a “speed guy” with evidence.
As a sophomore, he ran a 4:06 mile in while training like a speed guy. Faster than ALL of our all time greats at the same age (Centro, Ryun, Nuguse, Webb, etc.). He profiles like an all time great in the mile. So you can say he’s an “endurance guy” with evidence.
He also ran both of his off distance PRs significantly earlier in the season than his 800m PR. I think everyone assumes if he ran a 400m or 1500m the day of his 800m PR, both of those times would have been crushed.
For what’s it worth, I think he finishes higher on the US depth chart at 1500m than he does in the 400m.
I think he can’t be boxed. And before it’s all over with he will have some ungodly range like 44.3 on a relay carry and 3:28. And probably the 800m WR.