Yeah Cooper ran that race like he got 12 hours of sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't beat that this year but I would imagine this season will be overall better for him.
It’s all cope. Like one poster noted earlier, the nats meet was Coop’s outdoor debut against elites. Give him a couple of seasons against the top runners at 800m and Ruthe will likely not even want to bother racing Coop over two laps unless he is looking to be pulled to a PR.
That’s a good point about Lutkenhaus basically making his debut against top national/world class runners at the National Champs. They really aren’t trying to force anything with him, it jibes with his (so-far) low mileage training. Hopefully his coach etc will stay the course and gradually ratchet things up. As far as he and Ruthe go, Ruthe is obviously much stronger at 1500 but there is no doubt Lutkenhaus and crew don’t care about that at all. The 800 is the main focus above all elae. Apparently a lot of jealous people are hoping Lutkenhaus never improves (typical at LR unfortunately) but it’s hard to imagine a 16 yr old not improving a little bit as his his career evolves. Same for Ruthe. Surely he’ll run faster than this new 800m PR, but how much faster is tough to say. Cooper’s edge at the 800m is his leg speed, which Ruthe cannot match.
His dad obviously looks in here and could answer this definitively. I've seen videos of his training. He does interval sessions in a group. Tanner is part of that group at least at times and the two of them are sometimes (at least) close to each other but I don't know if they do the same number of reps in a typical session. I imagine Tanner runs more mileage. Sam is doing about 60k a week. Last I knew he was on Strava but you needed to request to follow him.
60k per week? That really is schoolboy level. Do you think that adequately explains how he is now running close to the times that a former Olympic great ran on 160mpw (the Lydiard formula)? At 16. And after only two years of training?
As for interval sessions - there is nothing new in that. It has been part of the sport for most of its history.
The only explanation left is a freakish level of talent the sport has likely never seen before. That's asking a lot.
This post was edited 32 seconds after it was posted.
It is the kind speculation that is frequently made here of runners from any country. If the athletes in question were Kenyans it's easy to see what the attitude on these boards would be. But Kenyans aren't the only athletes who dope.
I get that...but you didn't answer a simple question and a simple exercise for you to do to settle this
Antidoping doesn't need advice from me about how to do its job. It does what it does.
But this board allows discussion about the subject of doping in the sport including speculation about athletes. That is what I am doing. It may displease some, like you, but that is the price to be paid for not suppressing debate. You are free to offer your own views - as you do.
His dad obviously looks in here and could answer this definitively. I've seen videos of his training. He does interval sessions in a group. Tanner is part of that group at least at times and the two of them are sometimes (at least) close to each other but I don't know if they do the same number of reps in a typical session. I imagine Tanner runs more mileage. Sam is doing about 60k a week. Last I knew he was on Strava but you needed to request to follow him.
60k per week? That really is schoolboy level. Do you think that adequately explains how he is now running close to the times that a former Olympic great ran on 160mpw (the Lydiard formula)? At 16. And after only two years of training?
As for interval sessions - there is nothing new in that. It has been part of the sport for most of its history.
The only explanation left is a freakish level of talent the sport has likely never seen before. That's asking a lot.
If you're talking about Snell doing 160 miles a week you're way off base. Peter got to 100 at times and that was about it for him and he usually was below that. We specifically talked about the business of "supplemental runs" getting Arthur's guys to bigger miles but Peter said 100 was tops for him and he "counted every step." I believe Richard Tayler got up to that sort of number but I'm pretty sure he's not who you have in mind.
The short answer to your question is that yes, I do believe his training adequately explains his times. A longer answer is that I do not know how close his times are qualitatively are to what Peter ran. He has faster shoes, faster tracks, and much better pace making. Peter's second mile world record was very badly paced. Give him the advantages Sam has at his prime and I expect his times would have been well ahead of what Sam is running today.
I fully expect you'll disagree and raise the idea that he could be doping for something like the quadrillionth time. I doubt I'll have much of a response and I have never denied that drugs are a possibility. But you have my answer.
His dad obviously looks in here and could answer this definitively. I've seen videos of his training. He does interval sessions in a group. Tanner is part of that group at least at times and the two of them are sometimes (at least) close to each other but I don't know if they do the same number of reps in a typical session. I imagine Tanner runs more mileage. Sam is doing about 60k a week. Last I knew he was on Strava but you needed to request to follow him.
60k per week? That really is schoolboy level. Do you think that adequately explains how he is now running close to the times that a former Olympic great ran on 160mpw (the Lydiard formula)? At 16. And after only two years of training?
As for interval sessions - there is nothing new in that. It has been part of the sport for most of its history.
The only explanation left is a freakish level of talent the sport has likely never seen before. That's asking a lot.
The Lydiard formula from over 60 years ago is absolutely not the way to train talented youngsters who wish to compete at the highest levels as quickly as possible. Of course your jealousy will have you scream ‘drugs!’. Things change as time marches on, but you won’t.
NEVER going to happen with me posting such thread, you troll. Enjoy Sam's outstanding performance and seek attention on your own merit and not inclusion of someone's else name. YOU'RE PATHETIC.
60k per week? That really is schoolboy level. Do you think that adequately explains how he is now running close to the times that a former Olympic great ran on 160mpw (the Lydiard formula)? At 16. And after only two years of training?
As for interval sessions - there is nothing new in that. It has been part of the sport for most of its history.
The only explanation left is a freakish level of talent the sport has likely never seen before. That's asking a lot.
If you're talking about Snell doing 160 miles a week you're way off base. Peter got to 100 at times and that was about it for him and he usually was below that. We specifically talked about the business of "supplemental runs" getting Arthur's guys to bigger miles but Peter said 100 was tops for him and he "counted every step." I believe Richard Tayler got up to that sort of number but I'm pretty sure he's not who you have in mind.
The short answer to your question is that yes, I do believe his training adequately explains his times. A longer answer is that I do not know how close his times are qualitatively are to what Peter ran. He has faster shoes, faster tracks, and much better pace making. Peter's second mile world record was very badly paced. Give him the advantages Sam has at his prime and I expect his times would have been well ahead of what Sam is running today.
I fully expect you'll disagree and raise the idea that he could be doping for something like the quadrillionth time. I doubt I'll have much of a response and I have never denied that drugs are a possibility. But you have my answer.
Typo - I meant to write 160kpw. I also didn't say he ran 160kpw all year round - that wasn't the Lydiard formula. But the key thing is that he trained much harder than a schoolboy level today, which is 60kpw. And Ruthe won't do that all year round, as you mentioned interval training.
But tracks and shoes aside, surely you see it's a big ask to see a 16 year old on two years training could be near matching an Olympic great who trained much harder for longer?
If you like, set aside the comparison with Snell and look instead at one of the greats of today: Jakob Ingebrigtsen. From the age of 12 he was running up to 100kpw. Yet, prodigy as he was, Ruthe is even faster than Ingebrigtsen at 16 and on less training.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
60k per week? That really is schoolboy level. Do you think that adequately explains how he is now running close to the times that a former Olympic great ran on 160mpw (the Lydiard formula)? At 16. And after only two years of training?
As for interval sessions - there is nothing new in that. It has been part of the sport for most of its history.
The only explanation left is a freakish level of talent the sport has likely never seen before. That's asking a lot.
The Lydiard formula from over 60 years ago is absolutely not the way to train talented youngsters who wish to compete at the highest levels as quickly as possible. Of course your jealousy will have you scream ‘drugs!’. Things change as time marches on, but you won’t.
Md athletes today still combine conditioning training with interval training, hill work and speed work. Talented youngsters today aren't doing what athletes weren't doing sixty years ago.
If you're talking about Snell doing 160 miles a week you're way off base. Peter got to 100 at times and that was about it for him and he usually was below that. We specifically talked about the business of "supplemental runs" getting Arthur's guys to bigger miles but Peter said 100 was tops for him and he "counted every step." I believe Richard Tayler got up to that sort of number but I'm pretty sure he's not who you have in mind.
The short answer to your question is that yes, I do believe his training adequately explains his times. A longer answer is that I do not know how close his times are qualitatively are to what Peter ran. He has faster shoes, faster tracks, and much better pace making. Peter's second mile world record was very badly paced. Give him the advantages Sam has at his prime and I expect his times would have been well ahead of what Sam is running today.
I fully expect you'll disagree and raise the idea that he could be doping for something like the quadrillionth time. I doubt I'll have much of a response and I have never denied that drugs are a possibility. But you have my answer.
Typo - I meant to write 160kpw. I also didn't say he ran 160kpw all year round - that wasn't the Lydiard formula. But the key thing is that he trained much harder than a schoolboy level today, which is 60kpw. And Ruthe won't do that all year round, as you mentioned interval training.
But tracks and shoes aside, surely you see it's a big ask to see a 16 year old on two years training could be near matching an Olympic great who trained much harder for longer?
If you like, set aside the comparison with Snell and look instead at one of the greats of today: Jakob Ingebrigtsen. From the age of 12 he was running up to 100kpw. Yet, prodigy as he was, Ruthe is even faster than Ingebrigtsen at 16 and on less training.
After I posted I wondered if maybe you meant kilometers and not miles. And yes, what this kid is doing is amazing. But I think you are overestimating how close his times are to Snell's if you factor in the shoes, tracks, and pacers.
So here's another couple points. From what I can tell from videos I've seen and a few messages I've exchanged with his dad I think the 60k weeks are pretty much year round. And I think the intervals are as well though I wouldn't be surprised if there are breaks from them. But that's just inferring.
Now onto the light mileage. If you really know the Lydiard System and you talked with him about the role of the base phase you know he'd tell you the big volume is to develop the cardiovascular system so that it can deliver large amounts of oxygen throughout the body. But he would tell you that there are people who have a highly efficient cardiovascular system. Maybe they were born with it. Maybe they developed it from a very active life. Arthur did not think Kenyans needed to do really high volumes because their way of life had them training from the time they could walk. Whether that's what's going on here is guessing but I do not find it impossible to believe he can be turning in the times he is on 60k a week. There have been sub four minute miles run on even less volume. It's rare but it's been done.
why does Tanner think leading down the back straight is a good tactic ... it's not !!!! little and nippy .... wait , wait, wait and wait some more ... if he had run it correctly he should have knocked Farrell and willis further down the NZ all time list .
Great run by Ruthe but lets not forget Tanner smoked Willis over 800 metre as an 18 year old a year after Willis had medalled in Rio.
One year. Pretty sure this is his final year. Turns 17 in April. 18 you've left school. Crazy that he's improved 5 seconds on his mile pb in less than 12 months! His post race interview he sounds confident of running faster! Windy conditions tonight!
Typo - I meant to write 160kpw. I also didn't say he ran 160kpw all year round - that wasn't the Lydiard formula. But the key thing is that he trained much harder than a schoolboy level today, which is 60kpw. And Ruthe won't do that all year round, as you mentioned interval training.
But tracks and shoes aside, surely you see it's a big ask to see a 16 year old on two years training could be near matching an Olympic great who trained much harder for longer?
If you like, set aside the comparison with Snell and look instead at one of the greats of today: Jakob Ingebrigtsen. From the age of 12 he was running up to 100kpw. Yet, prodigy as he was, Ruthe is even faster than Ingebrigtsen at 16 and on less training.
After I posted I wondered if maybe you meant kilometers and not miles. And yes, what this kid is doing is amazing. But I think you are overestimating how close his times are to Snell's if you factor in the shoes, tracks, and pacers.
So here's another couple points. From what I can tell from videos I've seen and a few messages I've exchanged with his dad I think the 60k weeks are pretty much year round. And I think the intervals are as well though I wouldn't be surprised if there are breaks from them. But that's just inferring.
Now onto the light mileage. If you really know the Lydiard System and you talked with him about the role of the base phase you know he'd tell you the big volume is to develop the cardiovascular system so that it can deliver large amounts of oxygen throughout the body. But he would tell you that there are people who have a highly efficient cardiovascular system. Maybe they were born with it. Maybe they developed it from a very active life. Arthur did not think Kenyans needed to do really high volumes because their way of life had them training from the time they could walk. Whether that's what's going on here is guessing but I do not find it impossible to believe he can be turning in the times he is on 60k a week. There have been sub four minute miles run on even less volume. It's rare but it's been done.
Does he have a better cardiovascular system than Ingebrigtsen (7'17"), who was already running 100kpw from the age of 12?
One year. Pretty sure this is his final year. Turns 17 in April. 18 you've left school. Crazy that he's improved 5 seconds on his mile pb in less than 12 months! His post race interview he sounds confident of running faster! Windy conditions tonight!
What is the typical conclusion here when a runner carves that kind of improvement in 12 months? What would you say if he was Kenyan?
This post was edited 31 seconds after it was posted.
Regarding the questions about Sam Ruthe's training.
He does around 90km/week now when in base training. In the last 5 weeks before is 3.53 mile pb tonight, it's dropped down to about 60km/week as he's been racing almost every week.
In base training, he seems to do pretty standard stuff, looks like a V02-max interval session once a week on Tuesdays or Thursdays, along with a threshold session on Saturdays, usually something like 1km or 2km reps on the road at ~3.05-3.10/km (quite a few videos of these sessions on Instagram - either his dad's account or the training group's account). Also does a long run on Sunday I believe, around 16-18km (10-11mi) easy pace. Aside from that, it's just pretty standard easy runs, he also does some easy bike rides for crosstraining.
Last few weeks there hasn't been many big sessions - just some light but fast 200m/400m reps etc. in between all the races.
Obviously his progression is pretty astounding, but I'd keep in mind that he didn't really run at all until 14, so maybe 2-3 years ago. That would explain at least part of the rapid improvement, as all runners improve quite quickly in the first few years after they start training, especially when they are extremely consistent, are able to avoid injury, train smartly and have good guidance and support, like Sam does. Combine that with the fact that he already had at least a decent aerobic base from lots of swimming training prior to starting running, a lot of physical growth, and clearly very good genetics, the progression can make sense.
Anyway, it'll definitely be interesting to watch his next few races! Also quite curious if/when his coach will have him doing a bit more mileage and maybe more threshold sessions.
After I posted I wondered if maybe you meant kilometers and not miles. And yes, what this kid is doing is amazing. But I think you are overestimating how close his times are to Snell's if you factor in the shoes, tracks, and pacers.
So here's another couple points. From what I can tell from videos I've seen and a few messages I've exchanged with his dad I think the 60k weeks are pretty much year round. And I think the intervals are as well though I wouldn't be surprised if there are breaks from them. But that's just inferring.
Now onto the light mileage. If you really know the Lydiard System and you talked with him about the role of the base phase you know he'd tell you the big volume is to develop the cardiovascular system so that it can deliver large amounts of oxygen throughout the body. But he would tell you that there are people who have a highly efficient cardiovascular system. Maybe they were born with it. Maybe they developed it from a very active life. Arthur did not think Kenyans needed to do really high volumes because their way of life had them training from the time they could walk. Whether that's what's going on here is guessing but I do not find it impossible to believe he can be turning in the times he is on 60k a week. There have been sub four minute miles run on even less volume. It's rare but it's been done.
Does he have a better cardiovascular system than Ingebrigtsen (7'17"), who was already running 100kpw from the age of 12?