I do think Jakob could benefit from speed work. With the caveat that I'm a hack and that I have my own definition of speed work.
Distance runners conventionally define speed work as hard repeats of 200m or something. A sprinter would never call that speed work, because you can't actually sprint repeat 200M. It feels like a sprint to a distance runner but it isn't a true sprint. No one in the world can go TRUE full gas for even 100M. (even 100M sprinters pace their races)
I think Jakob could really benefit from working with a sprint coach to work on his top end speed and form. He's got all the fitness he needs. He just needs to develop his technique. This will give him a higher speed reserve and make running at top speed easier.
Lots of wickets, speed drills, over speeds and video analysis might get him another 1-2M of separation in a finishing straight in a championship final. I'm talking about 5-10% of the speed work/drills a sprinter might do. Just enough to maintain and develop the skill of top speed sprinting but not trash the legs.
True sprint work is incredibly taxing of the nervous system and needs to be introduced judiciously into a distance runners program. But I think it's the last stone unturned for his program.
How could you possibly know more about training than Ingebrigtsen, his brothers, and previously his father. If what you’re suggesting works, he would already be doing it.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
My point as well! 200m repeats are SPEED ENDURANCE which means it only benefits your 400m. True speed work is anything less than 120m of running
The ability to sprint and the ability to kick either off a slow pace or fast pace are not the same. Perhaps he doesn't do enough tempo-change work over varying distances to develop the speed that he has (which may be good enough). Coe practiced going from 300m out - accelerating every 100m. Double threshold and hill repeats are not going to develop this, neither are fast 100m strides/sprints. Not saying that he doesn't do any of it - but have never seen him do it, and certainly it isn't a well known element of his posted training. It isn't something done all year and it is taxing when done well. I know lots of coaching programs that rarely, if ever, seem to include this in training.
Jakob is remarkably open about his training approach. It's part of the reason us Letsrun trolls are constantly dissecting his training. It leads to a lot of arm chair quarterbacking which I love and think is good for the sport. His program doesn't have a bunch of sprint drills in it. Maybe he just doesn't post that, but it's unlikely.
Sprint technique drills is the main change Josh Kerr used to become world champ. Seb Coe did short fast sprints. Mo Farah and Galen Rupp did a ton of sprint drills and reportedly Galen Rupp had better drill technique than the sprinters. Nick Willis has spoken about how sprinting the final 100M well is a technical skill that can be improved not solely through physiology.
Most distance runners don't have a background in sprinting and undervalue running technique work. I don't think Jakob is any different. (His dad comes from a background in endurance training largely borrow from cross country skiing and that sport devalues true sprinting)
I also think that Jakob isn't doing it just because of the way he runs. He's got the best speed-endurance running stride in the game (PS he won the olympic 5K using that stride). But he doesn't have that turn of speed and bounce, that a better technical runner has.
I can't really describe why I believe it, but just watch the olympic final. Hocker is able to recruit his sprinting muscles into a faster stride in a way that Jakob just couldn't. Jakob did pace poorly (first 400M 1 second too fast, exclusive front running, veering into second lane in straightaway) but it didn't look like he only tied up, it looked like he couldn't recruit a sprint the way Hocker and Kerr could.
The man is so done. You can crow about his CV for all we care but something’s not quite right with him anymore. His performances while still valid strangely belies a sinking ship. Not sunken but sinking. That’s the difference. He succumbs far too easily to illness and said something like I always get a virus around the summer and winter but did strongman Bekele or Haile ever mentioned they get any at any time in their life. Those 2 are immortals it seems compared to Jakob.
After breaking up with mum and dad he also probably broke up with mum’s daily special concoction ginseng health tonic and others and for an immunocompromised guy like Jakob, that’s the last thing you want to break up with. He also lacks vitamin D if he is getting sick twice or thrice a year. We never heard of ElG getting sick did we?
It’s not the training, never was. Training is just to icing on the cake not the cake itself. The real cake is having healthy constitution, and VERY. I’m 25 this year and my dad is 55 but guess what happened when both were tested for health biomarkers? My dad beat me. I had low blood pressure, astigmatism, anxiety, asthma and many allergies while he had none. My dad would then make a good high performance athlete as a much healthy constitution adapts much better trainabliity to training—the icing on the cake.
Jakob is remarkably open about his training approach. It's part of the reason us Letsrun trolls are constantly dissecting his training. It leads to a lot of arm chair quarterbacking which I love and think is good for the sport. His program doesn't have a bunch of sprint drills in it. Maybe he just doesn't post that, but it's unlikely.
Sprint technique drills is the main change Josh Kerr used to become world champ. Seb Coe did short fast sprints. Mo Farah and Galen Rupp did a ton of sprint drills and reportedly Galen Rupp had better drill technique than the sprinters. Nick Willis has spoken about how sprinting the final 100M well is a technical skill that can be improved not solely through physiology.
Most distance runners don't have a background in sprinting and undervalue running technique work. I don't think Jakob is any different. (His dad comes from a background in endurance training largely borrow from cross country skiing and that sport devalues true sprinting)
I also think that Jakob isn't doing it just because of the way he runs. He's got the best speed-endurance running stride in the game (PS he won the olympic 5K using that stride). But he doesn't have that turn of speed and bounce, that a better technical runner has.
I can't really describe why I believe it, but just watch the olympic final. Hocker is able to recruit his sprinting muscles into a faster stride in a way that Jakob just couldn't. Jakob did pace poorly (first 400M 1 second too fast, exclusive front running, veering into second lane in straightaway) but it didn't look like he only tied up, it looked like he couldn't recruit a sprint the way Hocker and Kerr could.
Hocker was racing and not recruiting sprinting muscles. He has better top-end speed than Ingebrigtsen and that’s why he can beat Ingebrigtsen in a race that isn’t paced. Outside of improving his endurance, there’s nothing Jakob can do to outkick Hocker. He’s not an 800m runner and trying to train like one, won’t improve his ability to kick.
Jakob is remarkably open about his training approach. It's part of the reason us Letsrun trolls are constantly dissecting his training. It leads to a lot of arm chair quarterbacking which I love and think is good for the sport. His program doesn't have a bunch of sprint drills in it. Maybe he just doesn't post that, but it's unlikely.
Sprint technique drills is the main change Josh Kerr used to become world champ. Seb Coe did short fast sprints. Mo Farah and Galen Rupp did a ton of sprint drills and reportedly Galen Rupp had better drill technique than the sprinters. Nick Willis has spoken about how sprinting the final 100M well is a technical skill that can be improved not solely through physiology.
Most distance runners don't have a background in sprinting and undervalue running technique work. I don't think Jakob is any different. (His dad comes from a background in endurance training largely borrow from cross country skiing and that sport devalues true sprinting)
I also think that Jakob isn't doing it just because of the way he runs. He's got the best speed-endurance running stride in the game (PS he won the olympic 5K using that stride). But he doesn't have that turn of speed and bounce, that a better technical runner has.
I can't really describe why I believe it, but just watch the olympic final. Hocker is able to recruit his sprinting muscles into a faster stride in a way that Jakob just couldn't. Jakob did pace poorly (first 400M 1 second too fast, exclusive front running, veering into second lane in straightaway) but it didn't look like he only tied up, it looked like he couldn't recruit a sprint the way Hocker and Kerr could.
Hocker was racing and not recruiting sprinting muscles. He has better top-end speed than Ingebrigtsen and that’s why he can beat Ingebrigtsen in a race that isn’t paced. Outside of improving his endurance, there’s nothing Jakob can do to outkick Hocker. He’s not an 800m runner and trying to train like one, won’t improve his ability to kick.
Jakob has a much better kick than Hocker. Jakob could close at the same speed if he wanted if he didn’t lead the whole race, as well as going in 27.3 and 54.8 for the first lap. Hocker’s kick is overrated here.
You don’t agree but Jakob does. That’s he leads. He’s not leading by choice. He’s leading by necessity.
Look at his 5k for how he would prefer to run.
If it were as you say, why would he risk so much by jogging through the rounds in big championships? He regularly goes straight to the back, lets a large gap form to the leaders, then blasts the final lap to finish at the front. How does someone with no kick close a 3:34.9 race in 25 while running wide around the final bend?
He leads because he likes to and because he’s a cocky SOB who wants to prove a point. Look at the 2023 diamond league 3k final. He was the speediest guy in the field by far but chose to front run the entire thing anyway. And he still won with a sub-26 last 200.
A final 200m in 25.9 in 3:35 race is solid but it certainly does not indicate he can win with a kick in a final. The conversation of the “kick” is not whether he can finish fast enough for you to be impressed, but whether his closing finish is superior to his top competitors. There is still no evidence that Jakob can kick faster than Kerr, a healthy Wightman, or Hocker.
Do you think a person can be tactically brilliant in the 5k and a tactical idiot in the 1500m? Most tacticians a good tactically, full stop.
Jakob himself knows he’s not going to outkick those guys if he isn’t in the lead.
Hocker was racing and not recruiting sprinting muscles. He has better top-end speed than Ingebrigtsen and that’s why he can beat Ingebrigtsen in a race that isn’t paced. Outside of improving his endurance, there’s nothing Jakob can do to outkick Hocker. He’s not an 800m runner and trying to train like one, won’t improve his ability to kick.
Jakob has a much better kick than Hocker. Jakob could close at the same speed if he wanted if he didn’t lead the whole race, as well as going in 27.3 and 54.8 for the first lap. Hocker’s kick is overrated here.
He has been out kicked by a runner in the last two WC 1500ms in races where didn’t lead the entire race.
Jakob is remarkably open about his training approach. It's part of the reason us Letsrun trolls are constantly dissecting his training. It leads to a lot of arm chair quarterbacking which I love and think is good for the sport. His program doesn't have a bunch of sprint drills in it. Maybe he just doesn't post that, but it's unlikely.
Sprint technique drills is the main change
Most distance runners don't have a background in sprinting and undervalue running technique work. I don't think Jakob is any different. (His dad comes from a background in endurance training largely borrow from cross country skiing and that sport devalues true sprinting)
You know that in the process of developing the Norwegian method, Marius Bakken was coached by Leif Olav Alnes, aka the coach of Karsten Warholm and Geir Moen (european gold and silver 200m, worlds gold indoor 200m)?
Jakob has a much better kick than Hocker. Jakob could close at the same speed if he wanted if he didn’t lead the whole race, as well as going in 27.3 and 54.8 for the first lap. Hocker’s kick is overrated here.
He has been out kicked by a runner in the last two WC 1500ms in races where didn’t lead the entire race.
Jakob has a much better kick than Hocker. Jakob could close at the same speed if he wanted if he didn’t lead the whole race, as well as going in 27.3 and 54.8 for the first lap. Hocker’s kick is overrated here.
He has been out kicked by a runner in the last two WC 1500ms in races where didn’t lead the entire race.
It is hard to use those two as evidence when 1) Jakob was sick in 2023 and 2) Jakob ran pretty badly in 2022. I mean seriously, rewatch the 1500 final in Eugene, he ran in lane 2 for every bend for the first 600 meters. That is probably almost 15 meters in extra distance.
The ability to sprint and the ability to kick either off a slow pace or fast pace are not the same. Perhaps he doesn't do enough tempo-change work over varying distances to develop the speed that he has (which may be good enough). Coe practiced going from 300m out - accelerating every 100m. Double threshold and hill repeats are not going to develop this, neither are fast 100m strides/sprints. Not saying that he doesn't do any of it - but have never seen him do it, and certainly it isn't a well known element of his posted training. It isn't something done all year and it is taxing when done well. I know lots of coaching programs that rarely, if ever, seem to include this in training.
I agree. This comes from the way you train. Very few people train for a 'double kick'. I tended to train like a 10k / half runner regardless of event. I'd be strong enough to have a good long drive from 1000 out in, for example, 5000 (think when you're racing for time, not place) or a strong shorter kick from 400 out, but I could almost never pass people in the final ~100 or so. I'd need to be ahead of them - I could hold off pretty well but could never pass.
The ability to sprint and the ability to kick either off a slow pace or fast pace are not the same. Perhaps he doesn't do enough tempo-change work over varying distances to develop the speed that he has (which may be good enough). Coe practiced going from 300m out - accelerating every 100m. Double threshold and hill repeats are not going to develop this, neither are fast 100m strides/sprints. Not saying that he doesn't do any of it - but have never seen him do it, and certainly it isn't a well known element of his posted training. It isn't something done all year and it is taxing when done well. I know lots of coaching programs that rarely, if ever, seem to include this in training.
I agree. This comes from the way you train. Very few people train for a 'double kick'. I tended to train like a 10k / half runner regardless of event. I'd be strong enough to have a good long drive from 1000 out in, for example, 5000 (think when you're racing for time, not place) or a strong shorter kick from 400 out, but I could almost never pass people in the final ~100 or so. I'd need to be ahead of them - I could hold off pretty well but could never pass.
Cole Hocker ran a 3:27.65 after being rabbited for 1430m
Jakob has run a 3:26.73 after being rabbited for 1100m
Jakob als ran a 3:28.24 afted being rabbited for 0m
When Hocker ran 3:27.65 his finishing splits were: 1:49.6 ,53.3, 39.6, 26.3, 13.0
When Jakob ran 3:26.73 his finishing splits were: 1:49.4, 54.0, 40.2,26.8, 13.4
He is definitely ahead
Why do you Jakob fans redefine the argument so you can win it? No one said Jakob was not ahead of Hocker in a time trial. The poster said far & away ahead.
In Cole’s race, he was impeded with 150m to go and to decelerate. Not only that, it was 3rd 1500m in 5 days.
If Jakob was far and way, his front running strategy would actually work. But because he’s only marginally ahead, he doesn’t have enough of a cushion to win.
Jakob probably has about 0.5 to 0.8 over Hocker in time trial and that reverses to -0.5 to -0.8 when Jakob does not have a rabbit.
Cole Hocker ran a 3:27.65 after being rabbited for 1430m
Jakob has run a 3:26.73 after being rabbited for 1100m
Jakob als ran a 3:28.24 afted being rabbited for 0m
When Hocker ran 3:27.65 his finishing splits were: 1:49.6 ,53.3, 39.6, 26.3, 13.0
When Jakob ran 3:26.73 his finishing splits were: 1:49.4, 54.0, 40.2,26.8, 13.4
He is definitely ahead
Why do you Jakob fans redefine the argument so you can win it? No one said Jakob was not ahead of Hocker in a time trial. The poster said far & away ahead.
In Cole’s race, he was impeded with 150m to go and to decelerate. Not only that, it was 3rd 1500m in 5 days.
If Jakob was far and way, his front running strategy would actually work. But because he’s only marginally ahead, he doesn’t have enough of a cushion to win.
Jakob probably has about 0.5 to 0.8 over Hocker in time trial and that reverses to -0.5 to -0.8 when Jakob does not have a rabbit.
Jakob put a little over 2 seconds over Hocker in a time trial. It is not as clear cut as you make it.
I don't think he would have gotten this far if he LACKED speed work. The guy does not run his races accurately. His 400m speed is likely around 47 and most 5k runners ( east African ) have around 48-49 400m speed. This is why Jakob runs with less effort in the 5k because he does not have to run at 95% compared to his Kenyans and east africans counterparts who have to run near their all out effort. Why do you think Mo worked on this 400m speed ? he was a terrible finisher and a lacked the strength to finish a race.
This is also wrong. Sure, maybe Jakob have better 400m speed than some East Africans. But, the determining factor I believe in his 5000m Championship wins are his Anaerobic threshold and lactate tolerance. He can close in a 2:21 1000m.
Cole Hocker ran a 3:27.65 after being rabbited for 1430m
Jakob has run a 3:26.73 after being rabbited for 1100m
Jakob als ran a 3:28.24 afted being rabbited for 0m
When Hocker ran 3:27.65 his finishing splits were: 1:49.6 ,53.3, 39.6, 26.3, 13.0
When Jakob ran 3:26.73 his finishing splits were: 1:49.4, 54.0, 40.2,26.8, 13.4
He is definitely ahead
Why do you Jakob fans redefine the argument so you can win it? No one said Jakob was not ahead of Hocker in a time trial. The poster said far & away ahead.
In Cole’s race, he was impeded with 150m to go and to decelerate. Not only that, it was 3rd 1500m in 5 days.
If Jakob was far and way, his front running strategy would actually work. But because he’s only marginally ahead, he doesn’t have enough of a cushion to win.
Jakob probably has about 0.5 to 0.8 over Hocker in time trial and that reverses to -0.5 to -0.8 when Jakob does not have a rabbit.
Let me remind you of their head 2 head records from a post someone made a few months ago.
Jakob vs Yared 7-2 (Eugene 2023 and 2024, Oslo 2023, Rabat 2023, Budapest 2023, Monaco 2024, Brussels 2024 ------ Paris 2024, Zurich 2024) Jakobs biggest margin of victory against Yared: Monaco 2024 with +2.4 seconds Yareds biggest margin of victory again Jakob: Paris 2024 with +0.44 Seconds
Jakob vs Josh 9-3 ( World U20 Championships 2016, Doha 2019, Tokyo 2021, Oregon 2022, Lausanne 2022, Zurich 2022, Oslo 2023, Lausanne 2023, Zurich 2024 ------- Budapest 2023, Eugene 2024, Paris 2024) Jakobs biggest margin of victory against Kerr: Lausanne 2022 with +3.23 seconds Kerrs biggest margin of victory against Jakob: Paris 2024 with +0.45 seconds
Jakob vs Cole 8-1 (Tokyo 2021, Eugene 2022, Eugene 2023, Budapest 2023, Eugene 2024, Lausanne 2024, Zurich 2024, Brussels 2024 -------- Paris 2024) Jakobs biggest margin of victory against Cole: Eugene 2023 with +3.35 seconds Coles biggest margin of victory against Jakob: Paris 2024 with +0.59 seconds
Compare margins of victory, Jakob is still far away ahead in time trials where everyone is given similar drafting benefit (Jakob still has to lead final 500-600 meters)
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