One thing helpful to consider in this discussion is that the gap to close with equipment, training, nutrition, tactics, etc. is not the minutes between Pog and Lance/ Pantani. Instead, it is best clean performance that has been done. The latter is more hypothetical, given that very few elites have been clean, but it seems like we are trying to justify 2 to 3 minutes of improvement against a fake standard, which was minutes ahead of their real potential without PEDs. There was a good post that showed how these tech, nutrition, training, etc. improvements could help us believe the difference in Pantani and POG, but that's still short of clean Pantani vs. Pog. Pog's time was likely 5 minutes or more better than the best clean performance ever. That's a gap too far to believe without microdosing, which is almost certainly part of this story.
One thing helpful to consider in this discussion is that the gap to close with equipment, training, nutrition, tactics, etc. is not the minutes between Pog and Lance/ Pantani. Instead, it is best clean performance that has been done. The latter is more hypothetical, given that very few elites have been clean, but it seems like we are trying to justify 2 to 3 minutes of improvement against a fake standard, which was minutes ahead of their real potential without PEDs. There was a good post that showed how these tech, nutrition, training, etc. improvements could help us believe the difference in Pantani and POG, but that's still short of clean Pantani vs. Pog. Pog's time was likely 5 minutes or more better than the best clean performance ever. That's a gap too far to believe without microdosing, which is almost certainly part of this story.
Exactly, Pogacar is obliterating times of already super doped up riders full of EPO. And now Vingegaard confirms the stratospheric W/kg calculated by websites for him and Pogacar are indeed accurate and line up with what he sees on his power meter. All the posters in this thread smokescreening this with "nutrition" and "better bikes" are either paid shills or extremely ignorant:
" Pogacar's time up the climb itself was aided by the monstrous work of Matteo Jorgenson and Jonas Vingegaard. The latter also put in his career-best performance up the ascent, said to have averaged 6.85W/Kg for over 40 minutes.
"...The others on the team said that someone has estimated how many watts per kilo we have stepped on. To put it bluntly, it is very accurate," Vingegaard said in words to TV2 Denmark. "Of course I don't know what they rode in the old days, but it's at least the best I've ever ridden". "
One thing helpful to consider in this discussion is that the gap to close with equipment, training, nutrition, tactics, etc. is not the minutes between Pog and Lance/ Pantani. Instead, it is best clean performance that has been done. The latter is more hypothetical, given that very few elites have been clean, but it seems like we are trying to justify 2 to 3 minutes of improvement against a fake standard, which was minutes ahead of their real potential without PEDs. There was a good post that showed how these tech, nutrition, training, etc. improvements could help us believe the difference in Pantani and POG, but that's still short of clean Pantani vs. Pog. Pog's time was likely 5 minutes or more better than the best clean performance ever. That's a gap too far to believe without microdosing, which is almost certainly part of this story.
There are no PEDs. There is no magic metabolism. It's really not difficult to understand. If all you ever do is circular reasoning to justify your fantasy of a miracle drug that elevates your true metabolic framework to superhuman levels, then you're just promoting the very system you claim to abhor?
One thing helpful to consider in this discussion is that the gap to close with equipment, training, nutrition, tactics, etc. is not the minutes between Pog and Lance/ Pantani. Instead, it is best clean performance that has been done. The latter is more hypothetical, given that very few elites have been clean, but it seems like we are trying to justify 2 to 3 minutes of improvement against a fake standard, which was minutes ahead of their real potential without PEDs. There was a good post that showed how these tech, nutrition, training, etc. improvements could help us believe the difference in Pantani and POG, but that's still short of clean Pantani vs. Pog. Pog's time was likely 5 minutes or more better than the best clean performance ever. That's a gap too far to believe without microdosing, which is almost certainly part of this story.
There are no PEDs. There is no magic metabolism. It's really not difficult to understand. If all you ever do is circular reasoning to justify your fantasy of a miracle drug that elevates your true metabolic framework to superhuman levels, then you're just promoting the very system you claim to abhor?
When 100 kJ of glucose is consumed by the by body, how many kJ end up delivered to the pedals (or road), is this fixed or can it be improved?
There’s a guy who’s been posting on cycling forums as a supposed insider claiming Pog was gonna do 7 W/kg at the Tour. lol. No one believed him. He claims it’s all specific training, power forced training allows continuous refinement and high training loads…
One thing helpful to consider in this discussion is that the gap to close with equipment, training, nutrition, tactics, etc. is not the minutes between Pog and Lance/ Pantani. Instead, it is best clean performance that has been done. The latter is more hypothetical, given that very few elites have been clean, but it seems like we are trying to justify 2 to 3 minutes of improvement against a fake standard, which was minutes ahead of their real potential without PEDs. There was a good post that showed how these tech, nutrition, training, etc. improvements could help us believe the difference in Pantani and POG, but that's still short of clean Pantani vs. Pog. Pog's time was likely 5 minutes or more better than the best clean performance ever. That's a gap too far to believe without microdosing, which is almost certainly part of this story.
I dont think this argument holds with the tech and training advances since the late 1990s early 2000s
One thing helpful to consider in this discussion is that the gap to close with equipment, training, nutrition, tactics, etc. is not the minutes between Pog and Lance/ Pantani. Instead, it is best clean performance that has been done. The latter is more hypothetical, given that very few elites have been clean, but it seems like we are trying to justify 2 to 3 minutes of improvement against a fake standard, which was minutes ahead of their real potential without PEDs. There was a good post that showed how these tech, nutrition, training, etc. improvements could help us believe the difference in Pantani and POG, but that's still short of clean Pantani vs. Pog. Pog's time was likely 5 minutes or more better than the best clean performance ever. That's a gap too far to believe without microdosing, which is almost certainly part of this story.
I dont think this argument holds with the tech and training advances since the late 1990s early 2000s
Tech and training may have somewhat caught up with the performances of the Armstrong era. But the mid-1990s completely unrestricted era was a another step up in peak performances (Berzin, Riis, 1997 Ullrich, so many others), with Pantani pretty much at the top of the pile. But that gap is suddenly gone, or even reversed.
So a comparable running performance might be like running 7:15 in the 3000m. Ok, yes, the shoes help, but somehow nobody has so far been able to catch up to that Komen peak that came at the end of an intense running summer of '96.
In fact, I would guess this TdF is a harbinger of things to come - the new rocket fuel will surely be available to some elite runners already this year. The Olympics will be unbelievable, and someone (Jakob?) will likely run that 7:15 3k before 2025 is over.
Vingegaard ride 7.4 w/kg up the hill in the TT last year. I assume he pushed hard on the flat segment too so that's over 7 w/kg for 32 minutes. Interestingly Pogacar only did 6.7 w/kg. So he was supposedly on such a higher level, he's riding higher w/kg at the end of a stage than on a TT.
Vingegaard ride 7.4 w/kg up the hill in the TT last year. I assume he pushed hard on the flat segment too so that's over 7 w/kg for 32 minutes.
At these power levels, I think the limiting factor is not how much PEDs you can stuff in Pogacar and Vingegaard anymore but rather heat dissipation. It is typically estimated that your body generates 2x the amount of heat compared to the power that goes to the pedals because of the inherent metabolic byproducts. So Pogacar and Vingegaard would have to dissapate about 900-950 watts each in heat during their rides. Not easy to do and heatstroke becomes a very real factor. Might we see the mutants wear actively cooled refrigerated vests during races powered by batteries hooked up to their bikes?
The point here is that those advances need to explain ~5min+ and not 2 or 3 minutes. I.e. 15% to 20% improvement in W/Kg and not just 5% to 10% improvement.
There are no PEDs. There is no magic metabolism. It's really not difficult to understand. If all you ever do is circular reasoning to justify your fantasy of a miracle drug that elevates your true metabolic framework to superhuman levels, then you're just promoting the very system you claim to abhor?
When 100 kJ of glucose is consumed by the by body, how many kJ end up delivered to the pedals (or road), is this fixed or can it be improved?
It can be improved. However, since you don't understand power meter calibration, oxygen delivery or thermogregulation, how can you claim to understand efficiency?
Vingegaard ride 7.4 w/kg up the hill in the TT last year. I assume he pushed hard on the flat segment too so that's over 7 w/kg for 32 minutes. Interestingly Pogacar only did 6.7 w/kg. So he was supposedly on such a higher level, he's riding higher w/kg at the end of a stage than on a TT.
Those numbers are not real. They are made up numbers that appeal to journalists who like to write hyperbole and have no real knowledge of how power is produced.
The point here is that those advances need to explain ~5min+ and not 2 or 3 minutes. I.e. 15% to 20% improvement in W/Kg and not just 5% to 10% improvement.
Vingegaard ride 7.4 w/kg up the hill in the TT last year. I assume he pushed hard on the flat segment too so that's over 7 w/kg for 32 minutes.
At these power levels, I think the limiting factor is not how much PEDs you can stuff in Pogacar and Vingegaard anymore but rather heat dissipation. It is typically estimated that your body generates 2x the amount of heat compared to the power that goes to the pedals because of the inherent metabolic byproducts. So Pogacar and Vingegaard would have to dissapate about 900-950 watts each in heat during their rides. Not easy to do and heatstroke becomes a very real factor. Might we see the mutants wear actively cooled refrigerated vests during races powered by batteries hooked up to their bikes?
3x not 2x for metabolism including thermoregulation.
Again, there is no magic dope because there is no magic metabolism.
This is not taught in schools, colleges, universties. The education system has failed to distinguish the good science from the bad. Failed to explain why fantastic claims about supposed drug efficacy are unreliable.
If you’ve not watched the two-part Lance Armstrong 30 for 30, it is worth your time. The passing of years puts this whole era in a new light. I’m left wondering why anybody was authentically surprised or offended when Lance’s...
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