I’m a fan of the US distance squad but it’s definitely concerning how every single world championships they both choke to a massive degree to their potential. They must be trained to peak for USAs because besides the weather, it’s really concerning how Kincaid and Klecker can’t even make an indent on the world champs. They’re AT that level they just failed to execute every time. Is it their training? It sure seems like they are all following in Dathans footsteps not doing a dang thing when it really matters in the world or Olympic stage.
Galen Rupp spoiled us. We are use to seeing the top 10k American up there making a splash.
Truth is, neither Kincaid or Klecker were prepared for the humidity. They should have gone to Kenya or Ethiopia for heat and altitude. Instead they went to cold Saint Moritz and Flagstaff.
Agree here. The US men have demonstrated they can run those times. they were suffering badly, even in the post-race interviews..so, you’ve got to conclude that the heat had a lot to do with it. I’m not far from Budapest and it has been incredibly hot here. Very large boned and framed white boys are always going to suffer a lot harder than the tiny Africans in such conditions. No brainer…even in the cold, they’d be outclassed in the 10k, but last evening (in the heat) they were made to look like hobby joggers. They all worked hard and paid a price. There isn’t much more they could have done, so I think people should be proud of the effort.
also, we need to lobby for a later starting time for anything over 1500m when it is so hot. Doesn’t really affect the 1500m, but 3k steeple, 5k are affected; 10k definitely!
I agree that with their resources, Klecker and Kincaid should have gone somewhere hotter and more humid than St. Moritz. That being said, Ethiopia is neither hot nor humid – its high altitude means that the weather is very dry and temperate. Their runners are just so good that they didn't struggle in the humidity in Budapest.
In the men's 20k race walk, in the fastest race for depth in history, 2nd place (Perseus Karlstrom, Sweden) and 4th place, (Evan Dunfee, Canada) are both tall, and Karlstrom is heavily muscled. They come from northern countries, and their final prep for Budapest was in Switzerland at altitude. So, I don't think body type, or training for humidity, is an explanation.
Karlström has something the American 10k runners haven't: absolute iron will. The guy almost seem to be some sort of masochist when it comes to lousy weather.
ridiculous to think you need to train everyday in heat and humidity to be heat acclimated.
They have protocols for this. very likely they take your advice they perform even worse
bigger issue for them is that their 5k times are cute in a field like you saw today. you have the WR holder and numerous others under 1250.
them doing solid performances and national champions is not much in a field like that
Hey Santara.
I am very sorry your heat training protocol did not work the way you imagined it. Truthfully, wearing an extra layer of clothes is not enough to simulate hot and humid temperatures.
I am ridiculous for thinking going up and training in hot weather will make you better at running in hot weather?
Ridiculous that you haven't heard of specificity of training. The body adepts to the stress placed on it. There is no way weather in the 40s-50s is going to prepare a long distance runner to run in 90 degree weather.
Yes you are ridiculous because YOU apparently haven’t heard that training in hot and humid conditions continually will fatigue the body considerably. So youre specificity will also include a major bout of fatigue/overtraining.
World Triathletes do this all the time and race in worse. They don’t necessarily need to live in Kona to perform there
I’m a fan of the US distance squad but it’s definitely concerning how every single world championships they both choke to a massive degree to their potential. They must be trained to peak for USAs because besides the weather, it’s really concerning how Kincaid and Klecker can’t even make an indent on the world champs. They’re AT that level they just failed to execute every time. Is it their training? It sure seems like they are all following in Dathans footsteps not doing a dang thing when it really matters in the world or Olympic stage.
You make a good point about peaking for nationals.
I remember YEARS ago, probably an article in RW or t&fn, that nationals was too close to the major championships for our 10,000 guys.
Because our system is so brutal- you have to be on that day or you're out- they have to peak then peak again too soon.
Maybe our 10,000 trials should be earlier at a separate meet.
I’m a fan of the US distance squad but it’s definitely concerning how every single world championships they both choke to a massive degree to their potential. They must be trained to peak for USAs because besides the weather, it’s really concerning how Kincaid and Klecker can’t even make an indent on the world champs. They’re AT that level they just failed to execute every time. Is it their training? It sure seems like they are all following in Dathans footsteps not doing a dang thing when it really matters in the world or Olympic stage.
You make a good point about peaking for nationals.
I remember YEARS ago, probably an article in RW or t&fn, that nationals was too close to the major championships for our 10,000 guys.
Because our system is so brutal- you have to be on that day or you're out- they have to peak then peak again too soon.
Maybe our 10,000 trials should be earlier at a separate meet.
And many are trying to double at that national championships as well
Doesn’t Ethiopia or Kenya also have a trials for the 10k, but not the 5k?
The trials doesn’t seem to hurt Chelimo and Fisher’s performances at Worlds.
I think if you’re a world level talent you should be able to make the team and perform later at worlds. If you’re peaking to just make the worlds team, then your ceiling might just be top USA talent.
Woody, Klecker and Sean, this year, are not top 10 10k guys. I think you’d have to be in shape for like 26:30 or faster in a perfect conditions race, to hang with those guys and sniff the medals in the championships. Also the people complaining about the heat - it’s worlds, if you race worse in not ideal conditions, suck it up
Time to realize it American distance running (5k, 1ok, steeple) is not as good as you Americans think it is. Yes they can run fast time trials against themselves, yes they can run fast indoors at BU. But when it counts at the Worlds or Olympics they simply are not that good. Maybe run some XC, maybe show up at DL races.
Very true. And it was true even in Prefontaine's day. He went to Munich really thinking he was a world-beater, but he had rarely raced outside the U.S.
(Too bad Yifter miscounted the laps in the U.S.-Africa 5,000 in 1971. That might have served as a reality check for Pre.)
It's similar to the blissful isolation in which Japanese distance runners live but to a somewhat lesser degree.
Klecker and Woody were foolish to shave their facial hair, it was clearly the source of their powers. Not sure if McGorty ever had facial hair to begin with though.
What non Africans routinely make indents in championship races? Kincaid was the third non African. Making an indent (isn't that supposed to dent?) is an issue for distance runners that goes way beyond the US.
When you talk about choking to a massive degree relative to their potential I imagine you mean running so much slower that their best times. It was something like 90 degrees. No one is likely to run nearly as fast as they have in better conditions. But the other thing that comes into play here nearly all US distance guys with impressive times is that those times are achieved in events that are really glorified time trials. (I'm sure someone can think of exceptions but those aren't the norm.)
Championship events are actual races. Racing well requires a different skill set than simply being able to run fast and US distance running has really never been structured in a way that puts runners into settings which help develop that skill set so we consistently see what happened today, i.e. US runners with fast times in championship events running nowhere near those times and placing far from the medals.
This not anything new. If someone asked me how to change this I would say that US runners need to go to Europe and race frequently throughout July and August, to take their lumps in international races while learning how to place well eventually in such races. That's not going to happen consistently. Making it happen would require an organized effort by USATF, maybe requiring it to spend some money for it to happen. Distance running is not a high enough priority.
Galen Rupp.
The only American distance runner in the past 20 years to actually register as a threat among the African runners. He's the only one with global medals to prove it. Please leave Fishers PRs out of this conversation too...like another poster said, BU indoor PRs don't mean anything and certainly a joke compared to Rupp who trained to win (and didn't use super shoes) Rupp could hang with the Africans when the race changed pace and he was well trained to finish fast. Klecker is no where close to having the tools to race international championship caliber races. We'll see about Fishers future but except for 2022, he's not a threat to the Africans either.
It should be noted the absence of Salazar as coach is also partly to blame. Africans are still coached by coaches with questionable/dirty backgrounds, Paula Radcliff is still a darling commentator, and Lord Coe is in charge of the whole shebang yet they all also have very shady pasta and are still in the sport. ...AlSal was brought down for questionable but fringe violations and by his treatment of a former teenage prodigy and not blood doping or EPO. ...and none of his athletes ever tested positive...but Aden's, Cohm's, and Schumacher's were. Coe blood doped and who knows exactly what Radcliff did (her blood work makes no sense) AlSal was the best American coach and his absence is felt today. Mike Smith, Jerry Schumacher and Dathan Ritzenheim are nowhere close to AlSal. Facts
Doesn’t Ethiopia or Kenya also have a trials for the 10k, but not the 5k?
The trials doesn’t seem to hurt Chelimo and Fisher’s performances at Worlds.
I think if you’re a world level talent you should be able to make the team and perform later at worlds. If you’re peaking to just make the worlds team, then your ceiling might just be top USA talent.
Woody, Klecker and Sean, this year, are not top 10 10k guys. I think you’d have to be in shape for like 26:30 or faster in a perfect conditions race, to hang with those guys and sniff the medals in the championships. Also the people complaining about the heat - it’s worlds, if you race worse in not ideal conditions, suck it up
+1
People complaining about the heat? Suck it up? Dumb. There's plenty of clear evidence more muscle mass hurts a long distance runner in hot and humid conditions. The more mass, the more heat that is generated and the more your body suffers and things start breaking down. It's just common sense but you choose to ignore this simple fact
I’m really confused why you’re upset they ran the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in not great weather. The date has been on the calendar for years.They knew there’s a chance it would be super hot. It’s an any conditions race. Not a California, perfectly paced, ideal weather time trial. And the Americans know that.
Also Klecker, Woody and Sean weren’t whining throwing blame/making excuses for their performances. They said it was hot, fartlek-y and they were fighting but just couldn’t hang on. (Joe did blow up that bad tho. Being off the pack at 5k. I think he may peaked early or was just empty and the weather just made that more evident. Not sure he would’ve done super well yesterday if the temp was cooler)
And yes, if you’re a bigger runner, the heat will affect you more. It’s science. But you’re mad that the runners with the “ideal distance runners physique” are the best runners in the world in any condition? Come on. The best of the best were competing for the medals in the end and Americans just aren’t there right now.
I think the heat excuse is always the laziest throwaway line. Outdoor track is a summer sport and these athletes didn't only just find out about Budapest's summer. They've had bloody ages to prepare themselves for this meet.
A couple thoughts about the race, building off what a lot of people have said.
1. This race highlights the gap between guys like Rupp and 2022 Fisher and the rest of American hopefuls. You just have to be really frickin good, like 26:30-type good, to have a shot at hanging with the africans until the end. I think we had hope that with Woody's kick and fast 5ks this year, he could be a contender in a slow race, but he's just not at that level endurance-wise. His poor performance in the US champs 5k year highlighted that. His ceiling could be pretty high in the right conditions and type of race, and he may still be a medal threat in the next couple years, but he's just not strong enough (either mentally or physically, maybe both) to hang in a really tough race like this.
2. It's fair to say that the heat exacerbated the gap between the Americans and Africans, but that gap was already there and is not the reason Americans were irrelevant in this race. If it were 20-30 degrees cooler and Aregawi makes the same move he did at 2 miles, those 64-65 second laps are going to be 62-63s, and neither Kincaid nor any other American who isn't a top-form Grant Fisher is hanging with that given what they showed today. I'd guess that in that scenario Kincaid still gets dropped pretty badly and is sitting 8-9th at the bell, then is able to pick off a few people to maybe finish 6th-7th.
3. I was a bit worried that Klecker was over-raced/not peaking correctly. In addition to being super fit in Feb/March, he raced two diamond league 5ks in June, plus the tough 10k/5k double at USAs, and was probably a bit gassed coming in to this race. I know Fisher also ran super fast over the winter last year, but his only races between the Sound 10k in March and Worlds was US champs and a 1500. I agree that world cross would be better prep for than indoor time trials and the Americans should more seriously consider it, though Rupp didn't need it to become a 10k silver medalist.
Galen Rupp spoiled us. We are use to seeing the top 10k American up there making a splash.
Truth is, neither Kincaid or Klecker were prepared for the humidity. They should have gone to Kenya or Ethiopia for heat and altitude. Instead they went to cold Saint Moritz and Flagstaff.
Agree here. The US men have demonstrated they can run those times
Have they really done that? In an international competetive field, and in a competition setting with everything else that entails? (I am truely asking.)
I've seen several posts over recent months getting excited about the "depth" of U.S. runners. Whatever depth these fans think there is, it means nothing when the rest of the world is proportionately faster.
I agree with all of this and you laid it out much better than I did.
People hate that Bowerman never races, but maybe that’s what they have to do to peak for worlds? (I guess you could use Sean against this argument, but he missed significant time this year for injury so it’s not like he was training straight through and not racing the spring/early summer. He is also just not at Ahmed/2022 Fisher’s level)
Interesting that Alicia had to back off of training for a week or 2 because of Covid before usas(I think it was late May?) and skipped a Diamond league. She had a great day compared to last year when she was cooked in the final at 5k similar to Klecker(although the w final last year was like 90 seconds faster than this year + I’d say she has definitely leveled up more in fitness compared to klecker)
Curious how OAC will treat indoors during the Olympic year. Obviously some have had super success this summer, but Hoare is injured and Norris peaked the first week of May. I think their winter will be a little more low key and selective. Well at least for some of the athletes.
I've seen several posts over recent months getting excited about the "depth" of U.S. runners. Whatever depth these fans think there is, it means nothing when the rest of the world is proportionately faster.
Until the us runners figure out the correct regimen with their Dr's they will not be able to compete with the east Africans. When they get caught eating burritos we hate on them. When they don't eat burritos we say they suck...
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