Explain Like I'm 5: Why should I make my 800 guy do lots of long runs?

^^^

This.

Most folks here on LRC have no idea what it's like to run 400 in 48.x. Be careful listening to advice from those who don't understand that fast twitch athletes will lose their best asset (speed) if they skew too much towards slow long (relative) runs.

For the OP, careful, it's really easy to mess up this athlete's performance if you d it wrong. Obviously the kid has loads of natural talent so probably best to keep everything simple and light, but not slow. If he's going to doubling or tripling in a day at State, or needs to run heats, aerobic endurance is important and heart2run nailed it with those short intervals. ...Speed endurance is probably all this kid needs to improve to 1:50. Vigil/Coe's "Acceleration workout" is very good for this!

Workout #1 -
Intervals of 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 200 with pace increasing from mile pace down to 400 pace as intervals get longer. Walk/jog back to start of next interval for rest.
Workout #2 -
Intervals of 200, 220, 240, 260, 280, 300m with pace again increasing from mile pace down to 400 pace. Walk/jog to start of next interval for rest.

Because what you are doing is not aerobic. It really depends on the type of athlete you have (sprint background vs. distance background) but all 800 runners need to do aerobic work, this is not race pace work. If the event is somewhere between 33% to 60% aerobic (depends on what you read and your athlete) then you should spend at least that much time on aerobic work. Also aerobic work promotes better recovery from both the hard efforts so they can go to work again as well as stay as injury free as possible. Just my 2 cents.

No 5 year old should be attempting anything close to this type of training.

Couldn't agree more. I have no problem racing in 1st day 400 or 1500 and in second 800+400 relay. I can revover within 60min

We don't know if the kid is sprinter type or super talented balanced 800m runner. Nick Symmonds, Borzakovsky and other big mileage 800m runners ran 400m in 46-47 range

True.

He could be flying under the radar regarding his aerobic potential. Many track kids never want to even give a 1600 a try and if they're fast, coaches might not push them towards distance because they are already very good at the race distance the kid likes. ...It wouldn't hurt to put the kid in a fast heat of 1600 and see what he can naturally do.

But given what is known, OP can coast with this kid, keep it light & fast, add some speed endurance and get good results. He can also mess it up very easy by pounding him with lots of hard workouts ...or by adding slow long runs!

I think what distance runners also don't understand about long-sprinters and mid-distance guys, is not only do they not tend to tolerate lots of mileage, but they don't benefit as much either. The Korir's, Solomen, Amos's of the world are not effectively stimulating the muscle fibers and energy systems in their body which allow them to run so fast in the 400/800. That's not to say there is no benefit of easy mileage and aerobic work to these types, but the point of diminishing returns is reached much sooner than your average distance runner, or even 800/1500 guy. There's no exact prescription to give, but don't be surprised if guys like Flatt do very well off of like 15mpw.

True, this is where a little trial and error might be in order. Although, you can usually tell by just throwing them in some longer races. Clayton Murphy is another type that fits in the 800/1500 category who runs higher mileage, and he came pretty close to breaking 24 in the 8k, and ran 15:32 in hs.

I'm not a coach, but anecdotally I've seen several 800 runners focus on speed and power and hit a plateau. One in particular hit 1:50 and was there for years (most of his times were around 1:52 though he had peaked at 1:50). He finally trained with the cross country guys, built an aerobic engine and hit 1:48 the next season (he also ran the 1500 for the first time and ran 3:47).

The suggestions about using intervals for aerobic development are correct for the 400/800 kids.

You definitely need aerobic development for long term improvement in the event.

15/8 types get this most efficiently from long runs and tempo runs year round with vo2 max type workouts during certain periods.

8/4 types still need aerobic development (less of it) but they need different stimulus to get it. Aerobic intervals similar to what sprint coaches think of as extensive tempo are the best approach with these runners. Think of simulating 20 minutes of a pick up game of hoops or a midfielder in a soccer match. This can be sets of 100/200 meters at roughly mile or two mile pace with short floating or standing rest.

The reason you go slower than 800 pace for aerobic sessions even though it’s non-specific is because the athlete can work longer in this range in a single session to maximize that attribute and also will be able to survive the week, month, season better.

Even with 4/8 kids, too much of the anaerobic intensity will lead to burnout. So mixing in 1-2 aerobic sessions per week is better. Sometimes they can be treated as lighter recovery workouts and can be done the day after a hard 800 specific session.

Arthur Lydiard discovered this fact 60+ years ago which was why he had the likes of Peter Snell (arguably one of the best 800m runners to ever live) doing cross country and numerous long runs through the hills of New Zealand as part of his 800m base training. The rest is history. Snell still actually holds the New Zealand 800m record which he set on a grass track in 1962! Not to mention his double Olympic golds and numerous world records all by the age of 25.

How is the kids last 200m? Is he stronger than other guys or gets overtaken by some?

Anna Hall ran 2:03 at the end of a hep on 2-3mpw.

Image:cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/2126815...

Brazier is a quick dude. He ran 3:35 for 1500 fyi. That takes significant aerobic ability. I'd be willing to bet his 400 speed then vs HS are not too different. But, I'd wager he was WAYworse aerobically in HS than when he ran 3:35 as a pro (clearly). And guess what - now he's the AR holder at 800. So what's the difference? His speed or his strength?

Brazier has been broken for years now, while 44.x 400m man Emmanuel Korir cleans up every 800m medal on the world stage. He has never broken 4 in the mile or 1500m equivalent.

Brazier's a 800-specialist, meaning he's best at the 800 and his 400/1500 times are about equal in terms of performance. Brazier's 400 speed is about average for 800 guys at his level, so he's definitely not a 4/8 type.

What does Korir have to do with Brazier?

Brazier came out of HS with 45s relay speed and a 1:48 800. He dropped to 1:42 as a pro while also dropping a staggering 3:35 (staggering for an 800 runner, lol). The 1:42 and 3:35 are not unrelated is my point. He was in a system that built his aerobic capacity and that led to some big break-throughs for him.

Can you succeed at 800 without being sub 4? Absolutely. There are tons of runners that do well (such as Korir).

45.x relay split in HS

Because boy runs 48.5 400m, doesn't mean, he can't run 30-45min easy runs for aerobic development.