Good addition. I would tweak “recapture” to simply “record breaks” so as to not penalize runners who break their own records, as both Geb and Bekele have done. Either way, you are correct that Geb has Bekele beat in that regard.
With that said, allow me to add a fourth dimension to a WR, which can be applied to all 3 we’ve examined thus far: historical uniqueness. Meaning: how unique were they historically since the creation of the IAAF in 1912 in what they achieved in that event?
Geb is most known for the number of records he broke, but at least on the track, he’s not peerless in that category. Ron Clarke broke the 5K WR just as many times as Geb did, and Emil Zátopek broke the 10K WR more times.
Looking at the greatest amounts by which Geb broke a WR, Geb lowered the 5K from 12:55 to 12:44 and then 12:41, for a total of nearly 13.5ish seconds (pardon the sound of my jaw dropping as I recall that fact). He is #1 there, but others are close. Lauri Lehtinen took 11 seconds off the 5K WR in one race, and Ron Clarke dropped the WR by 9 seconds and then, after Kip Keino broke it, Clarke took another 7 seconds off. In the 10K, Geb lowered the WR by about 9 seconds, then 7 seconds, then 5 seconds. Paavo Nurmi lowered the 10K WR by 18 seconds and then another 17 seconds, and Zátopek lowered it by 33 seconds. Then Ron Clarke came along about a decade later and lowered it by a whopping 36 seconds (Clarke seems criminally underrated, but that’s a topic for another thread). So Geb is not #1 all-time there.
When we look at record duration, Bekele is historically in a class by himself in both the 5K and 10K (only looking at the 5K and 10K record holders) for holding those records for 16 years. In the 5K, Gunder Hägg held the WR for a little less than 12 years, and Hannes Kokehmainen had it for just over 10. Nurmi held the 10K WR for just shy of 13 years; no one else held it over a decade. So Bekele held the 5K WR 33% longer than anyone else in that event, and he held the 10K record 23% longer than anyone else.
As if that wasn’t enough, we can look historically at everyone who held the 5K and 10K records simultaneously and who is the most unique in how long they did so. This is track distance running’s super elite, as only 10 men in history have held both records at the same time:
Paavo Nurmi, 6 years Taisto Mäki, 3 years Emil Zátopek, 3 months Vladimir Kuts, 3 years Ron Clarke, 6 years Lassie Virén, 1 week Henry Rono, 4 years Haile Gebrselassie, 6 years Kenenisa Bekele, 16 years Joshua Cheptegei, 2 years so far
Bekele is the historical outlier here by a staggering margin. His duration as dual WR holder is 167% better than anyone else!!
You might chalk that up to luck, I attribute it to GOATness. It’s not like there wasn’t an all-time great runner who came right after him. Mo Farah did, but Farah himself admitted he didn’t have the ability to break Bekele’s records. Even he knows Bekele is the GOAT.
Awesome post.
One tiny addition is to note that the 5k WR was 12:58.39 before Haile first got his hands on it, and his final WR was 12:39.36 - 19.03 seconds lower. I find that to be a more impressive stat than lowering it by 13.44 seconds consecutively (without interruption). That’s also even better than Clarke: 13:35.0 before he first broke it, with a final WR of 13:16.6 (-18.4).
In addition to the 19 seconds off the 5K WR (across 4 settings), Haile took a total of 29.48 seconds off the 10K WR (across 3 settings).
In comparison, Bekele took 2 seconds off the 5K WR (1 set), and about 5 off the 10K (2 sets....the 2nd which I had forgotten).
Gotta go back to 60s and Clarke to see chunks anything like Haile's - and then only in the 10K.
And I guess this opens me to massive criticism, but....it does seem perhaps a BIT questionable to compare post-African-entrance distance running to the days of the Olympics (and world class track in general) being essentially the NATO/ANZAC/Soviet Bloc championships.
Last but not least, regarding longevity of records, it is easy to imagine that Bekele (and probably Cheptegei) have/will benefited significantly from a lot of 26-low capable guys going straight to the marathon in recent decades.
Having said that, while I have essentially no doubt that lots of low-2 guys out there are low/mid-26 guys in hiding.....I'm still FAR from sure if any of them are sub-26:11 guys !!! Quite impressive to be reminded that Cheptegei took over 6 seconds off Bekele's record (.....shoes and lights notwithstanding!!).
And a little more context to the above: I realize I'm making a rather extreme case for the value of KB's GL/DL dominance -- even I don't actually believe winning, say, a Paris DL 5000m should carry as much weight in GOAT considerations as winning the Berlin 42.2. Big-city marathons of course attract far more media attention and occur far less often than pro track races. However, it is pretty undeniable that many of the fields Bekele routinely beat in his GL/DL races featured fields at least as strong relative to their distances as those Kipchoge faced in his marathons. Sometimes those fields even resembled those of Oly finals in their depth and competitiveness. So why treat those wins as marginal to KB's career while considering Kipchoge's WMM victories among his career-defining achievements?
My question stems from my feeling that this GL/DL dominance represents an underappreciated aspect of KB's career. No, those wins shouldn't be considered nearly on par with his global championships, but the regularity with which he took down world-class fields month after month, summer after summer remains a tremendously impressive accomplishment, one that sets him further apart from, for example, Farah, who raced only sparingly on the DL while at the top.
While I paid more attention to it when Haile was doing it, there's no doubt that dominating all-comers at many of the top meets in Europe all summer is very, very impressive. I remember watching Haile stand on the line, huge smile, week after week, knowing that there was a gang of Kenyans absolutely determined to take him out every time. And almost always coming out on top.
On the other hand, 2 things regarding Kipchoge and the marathon:
1) I don't have a great memory of all of the fields he ran against at 26, and I have little doubt that some were thin. But SOME were not. As even a casual observer knows, Berlin and London have put together some pretty incredible fields over the years. Kipchoge handled almost all of them, and often easily.
2) Historically, top marathon fields have probably always varied a lot in depth. AND YET, no one before Kipchoge could ever achieve any lasting marathoning dominance. But he did.
One tiny addition is to note that the 5k WR was 12:58.39 before Haile first got his hands on it, and his final WR was 12:39.36 - 19.03 seconds lower. I find that to be a more impressive stat than lowering it by 13.44 seconds consecutively (without interruption). That’s also even better than Clarke: 13:35.0 before he first broke it, with a final WR of 13:16.6 (-18.4).
In addition to the 19 seconds off the 5K WR (across 4 settings), Haile took a total of 29.48 seconds off the 10K WR (across 3 settings).
In comparison, Bekele took 2 seconds off the 5K WR (1 set), and about 5 off the 10K (2 sets....the 2nd which I had forgotten).
Gotta go back to 60s and Clarke to see chunks anything like Haile's - and then only in the 10K.
And I guess this opens me to massive criticism, but....it does seem perhaps a BIT questionable to compare post-African-entrance distance running to the days of the Olympics (and world class track in general) being essentially the NATO/ANZAC/Soviet Bloc championships.
Last but not least, regarding longevity of records, it is easy to imagine that Bekele (and probably Cheptegei) have/will benefited significantly from a lot of 26-low capable guys going straight to the marathon in recent decades.
Having said that, while I have essentially no doubt that lots of low-2 guys out there are low/mid-26 guys in hiding.....I'm still FAR from sure if any of them are sub-26:11 guys !!! Quite impressive to be reminded that Cheptegei took over 6 seconds off Bekele's record (.....shoes and lights notwithstanding!!).
And not un-importantly, Uganda also arguably has the coolest flag of the three countries involved here.....
One tiny addition is to note that the 5k WR was 12:58.39 before Haile first got his hands on it, and his final WR was 12:39.36 - 19.03 seconds lower. I find that to be a more impressive stat than lowering it by 13.44 seconds consecutively (without interruption). That’s also even better than Clarke: 13:35.0 before he first broke it, with a final WR of 13:16.6 (-18.4).
In addition to the 19 seconds off the 5K WR (across 4 settings), Haile took a total of 29.48 seconds off the 10K WR (across 3 settings).
In comparison, Bekele took 2 seconds off the 5K WR (1 set), and about 5 off the 10K (2 sets....the 2nd which I had forgotten).
Gotta go back to 60s and Clarke to see chunks anything like Haile's - and then only in the 10K.
And I guess this opens me to massive criticism, but....it does seem perhaps a BIT questionable to compare post-African-entrance distance running to the days of the Olympics (and world class track in general) being essentially the NATO/ANZAC/Soviet Bloc championships.
Last but not least, regarding longevity of records, it is easy to imagine that Bekele (and probably Cheptegei) have/will benefited significantly from a lot of 26-low capable guys going straight to the marathon in recent decades.
Having said that, while I have essentially no doubt that lots of low-2 guys out there are low/mid-26 guys in hiding.....I'm still FAR from sure if any of them are sub-26:11 guys !!! Quite impressive to be reminded that Cheptegei took over 6 seconds off Bekele's record (.....shoes and lights notwithstanding!!).
With all due respect, you seem to be reaching now. Clarke took more time off the 10K record than Geb, and as JWH calculated, was nearly identical in lowering the 5K. The difference between Geb improving the 5K record by 19.03 seconds and Clarke’s 18.4 second improvement is only 0.63 seconds. Pretty negligible difference for a 5K.
Regarding low-2 marathon guys and what they might have been able to run in a track 10K, you can imagine all you want but that doesn’t change anything. Plus: the fact that Bekele as an old man has run faster in the marathon than all but Kipchoge suggests that it’s unlikely those guys could have beaten his times on the track. Bekele holding the 5K and 10K world records simultaneously for 167% longer than anyone else in history is an unassailable indicator of his greatness.
And this is just track. Compare what Geb and Bekele did in cross country, and you’ll see quickly there is no comparison. Sorry, I love Geb, but he’s going to have to settle for #2. Bekele is the GOAT.
In addition to the 19 seconds off the 5K WR (across 4 settings), Haile took a total of 29.48 seconds off the 10K WR (across 3 settings).
In comparison, Bekele took 2 seconds off the 5K WR (1 set), and about 5 off the 10K (2 sets....the 2nd which I had forgotten).
Gotta go back to 60s and Clarke to see chunks anything like Haile's - and then only in the 10K.
And I guess this opens me to massive criticism, but....it does seem perhaps a BIT questionable to compare post-African-entrance distance running to the days of the Olympics (and world class track in general) being essentially the NATO/ANZAC/Soviet Bloc championships.
Last but not least, regarding longevity of records, it is easy to imagine that Bekele (and probably Cheptegei) have/will benefited significantly from a lot of 26-low capable guys going straight to the marathon in recent decades.
Having said that, while I have essentially no doubt that lots of low-2 guys out there are low/mid-26 guys in hiding.....I'm still FAR from sure if any of them are sub-26:11 guys !!! Quite impressive to be reminded that Cheptegei took over 6 seconds off Bekele's record (.....shoes and lights notwithstanding!!).
With all due respect, you seem to be reaching now. Clarke took more time off the 10K record than Geb, and as JWH calculated, was nearly identical in lowering the 5K. The difference between Geb improving the 5K record by 19.03 seconds and Clarke’s 18.4 second improvement is only 0.63 seconds. Pretty negligible difference for a 5K.
Regarding low-2 marathon guys and what they might have been able to run in a track 10K, you can imagine all you want but that doesn’t change anything. Plus: the fact that Bekele as an old man has run faster in the marathon than all but Kipchoge suggests that it’s unlikely those guys could have beaten his times on the track. Bekele holding the 5K and 10K world records simultaneously for 167% longer than anyone else in history is an unassailable indicator of his greatness.
And this is just track. Compare what Geb and Bekele did in cross country, and you’ll see quickly there is no comparison. Sorry, I love Geb, but he’s going to have to settle for #2. Bekele is the GOAT.
I don't get the "reaching." I acknowledged that Clarke did better at 10K. He took it down 39 seconds in 2 tries. But I don't think that it's "reaching" to suggest that we're arguably talking about 2 fundamentally different eras. And I certainly wouldn't be the first to suggest it. The mostly-previously-absent Africans start dominating both lists in 77-78.
And sorry, I don't have much respect for a position that simply dismisses a possibly major change in who runs what how often? If the 10K was made illegal tomorrow, would Cheptegei be the undisputed greatest in a decade or two? Of course fast guys not running the 10 nearly as much as they used to matters when assessing record longevity.
I also don't get the "Bekele ran the marathon fast when old, so slightly slower marathon guys couldn't have run as fast/faster than him at 10K." Just not seeing the logic. Everyone knows that it's hard to predict marathon performance from the 10K. How many great marathon times were run by Clarke, Viren, Bedford, Kimobwa, Rono, Mamede, Barrios, Chelimo, Ondieki, Sigei, Hissou, and Tergat? Off the top of my head, I think that you might have to wait until the last name. In any event, it clearly isn't many. Will it shock anyone if Cheptegei tops out at 2:04? No. By extension, is it plenty reasonable to assume that there are some 2:04 guys who've never seen a track that had a 26:19 in them? Yes.
Lastly, you also seem to miss the fact that I'm not necessarily making a case for Haile being the greatest. I'm simply highlighting some of his accomplishments - and, notably, those of a few others, as well.
While I paid more attention to it when Haile was doing it, there's no doubt that dominating all-comers at many of the top meets in Europe all summer is very, very impressive. I remember watching Haile stand on the line, huge smile, week after week, knowing that there was a gang of Kenyans absolutely determined to take him out every time. And almost always coming out on top.
On the other hand, 2 things regarding Kipchoge and the marathon:
1) I don't have a great memory of all of the fields he ran against at 26, and I have little doubt that some were thin. But SOME were not. As even a casual observer knows, Berlin and London have put together some pretty incredible fields over the years. Kipchoge handled almost all of them, and often easily.
2) Historically, top marathon fields have probably always varied a lot in depth. AND YET, no one before Kipchoge could ever achieve any lasting marathoning dominance. But he did.
Yep, for sure -- these are great points, and I totally agree that some of Kipchoge's marathon fields (especially the London ones) have been really deep. And, like everyone in this thread, I am amazed by Kipchoge's unprecedented consistency in such an unpredictable event as the marathon.
The question I was posing to JWH (and my apologies for reaching back into an entirely different thread -- I don't want to derail the great discussion that's unfolding in this one) really just concerned the criteria by which he was comparing Bekele-Kipchoge. To take a very specific example: among the entries for Kipchoge's GOAT resumé, JWH listed his 2017 Berlin win in 2:03:30ish over a relatively thin (by WMM standards, that is) field. If you're going to include that win on Kipchoge's resumé, by what criteria can you not include on Bekele's resumé his 2008 Zurich 5000m win (to take another very specific example) over a stacked field that included Leonard Komon, Abraham Chebii, Moses Masai, Micah Kogo, Edwin Soi, Boniface Kiprop, Joseph Ebuya, etc.? I don't think anyone would deny that Bekele faced a better 5000m field that day than Kipchoge did his marathon field in Berlin.
So, by what standard can you accord great importance (as JWH did in that earlier thread) to Kipchoge's 2017 Berlin win but almost none at all to individual wins like Bekele's in Zurich (and of course Bekele had many, many more like that over the years)? If you add those items to Bekele's resumé and give them even a fraction of the weight given to Kipchoge's wins, it becomes that much harder to argue for Kipchoge as GOAT.
Anyways, sorry for sidetracking the discussion! Like I said, I totally agree that Kipchoge's wins (all of them -- any WMM win is very impressive, in my books) and consistency are amazing. And you guys are having a fantastic debate that's given me lots to consider on the question of how to assess running greatness, so thanks for that.
With all due respect, you seem to be reaching now. Clarke took more time off the 10K record than Geb, and as JWH calculated, was nearly identical in lowering the 5K. The difference between Geb improving the 5K record by 19.03 seconds and Clarke’s 18.4 second improvement is only 0.63 seconds. Pretty negligible difference for a 5K.
Regarding low-2 marathon guys and what they might have been able to run in a track 10K, you can imagine all you want but that doesn’t change anything. Plus: the fact that Bekele as an old man has run faster in the marathon than all but Kipchoge suggests that it’s unlikely those guys could have beaten his times on the track. Bekele holding the 5K and 10K world records simultaneously for 167% longer than anyone else in history is an unassailable indicator of his greatness.
And this is just track. Compare what Geb and Bekele did in cross country, and you’ll see quickly there is no comparison. Sorry, I love Geb, but he’s going to have to settle for #2. Bekele is the GOAT.
I don't get the "reaching." I acknowledged that Clarke did better at 10K. He took it down 39 seconds in 2 tries. But I don't think that it's "reaching" to suggest that we're arguably talking about 2 fundamentally different eras. And I certainly wouldn't be the first to suggest it. The mostly-previously-absent Africans start dominating both lists in 77-78.
And sorry, I don't have much respect for a position that simply dismisses a possibly major change in who runs what how often? If the 10K was made illegal tomorrow, would Cheptegei be the undisputed greatest in a decade or two? Of course fast guys not running the 10 nearly as much as they used to matters when assessing record longevity.
I also don't get the "Bekele ran the marathon fast when old, so slightly slower marathon guys couldn't have run as fast/faster than him at 10K." Just not seeing the logic. Everyone knows that it's hard to predict marathon performance from the 10K. How many great marathon times were run by Clarke, Viren, Bedford, Kimobwa, Rono, Mamede, Barrios, Chelimo, Ondieki, Sigei, Hissou, and Tergat? Off the top of my head, I think that you might have to wait until the last name. In any event, it clearly isn't many. Will it shock anyone if Cheptegei tops out at 2:04? No. By extension, is it plenty reasonable to assume that there are some 2:04 guys who've never seen a track that had a 26:19 in them? Yes.
Lastly, you also seem to miss the fact that I'm not necessarily making a case for Haile being the greatest. I'm simply highlighting some of his accomplishments - and, notably, those of a few others, as well.
Thank you for clarifying you’re not claiming Haile is the greatest. That was unclear to me based on what you wrote about Bekele’s 10K record. I, too, have given credit to Geb where credit is due.
As for not respecting why Bekele’s 10K record lasted so long (notable that you say nothing about his 5K record), I likewise don’t respect someone’s imagination as a basis for argument. Especially not when that vivid imagination consists of there supposedly being, as you wrote, “a lot of 26-low capable guys.” Only 4 men have ever run under 26:30 in history, yet you imagine there are “a lot” of guys who could have run 26-low in the last 18 years? I’m not buying that.
Imagination is simply not relevant when evaluating a runner’s greatness. I can imagine what Bekele could have done in the 2016 Olympic marathon if given the chance to run based on what he did at Berlin shortly thereafter, but it doesn’t change the fact that he so far hasn’t won an Olympic medal in the marathon. I could imagine what Bekele could have run last weekend in London if he hadn’t missed 6 weeks of training, but it doesn’t matter.
All that matters is what people did, not what we imagine they or others could have done. Here are some of the things that Bekele did:
He’s the only person in history to run sub-12:40, sub-26:20, and sub-2:02.
He’s the only person in history to come within 2 measly marathon seconds of holding the 5K, 10K, and marathon world records simultaneously.
He held the 5K and 10K world record simultaneously 167% longer than anyone else ever did.
He pulled off the incredible quintuple-double at the world cross country championships.
All that plus multiple gold medals and a boat load of Diamond/Golden League wins.
Sure thing. My question, posted below, is very simple -- and no, you very clearly did not answer it, as others noted at the time. (Some context, too, since it's been a while: you made your case for Kipchoge by presenting his GOAT "resumé," roughly half of which consisted of his Chicago/Berlin/London WMM wins.)
Anyways, without further ado (and cut-and-pasted from the old thread):
"One of my basic questions, which you continue to avoid answering, is quite simple: why should we place tremendous importance upon Kipchoge's wins in professional non-championship races (e.g. Berlin, Chicago) that pitted him against one or two other truly superelite competitors while treating Bekele's many victories in professional non-championship races that often featured the biggest talents of his generation (Diamond/Golden Leagues) as essentially afterthoughts?"
Thanks. Here is why I believe Kipchoge’s WMM record carries substantially greater weight than Bekele’s stellar record on the Golden League circuit.
A) When attempting to quantify and divvy out “Greatness,” I believe there’s only so much to go around for each era, each discipline and each form of achievement. What I mean by this is that, for example, if suddenly 3 or 4 new 1:41 800 guys cropped up and started trading off big wins, naturally I wouldn’t rank them all ahead of Coe, Snell or Juantorena—they’d be sharing the same slice of greatness. From a different angle, if every great 5k/10k runner who came along won double-gold at the Olympics (obviously they don’t, but Kohlemainen, Zatopek, Kuts, Viren, Yifter, Bekele and Farah all have) then that achievement starts to carry less weight. What I’m looking for in essence is the uniqueness of an achievement, or a lack of any historical comparison or anyone comparable in a particular sphere.
B) With that in mind, I don’t think Bekele’s 3k/5k record on the Golden League circuit is anywhere near as unique or unprecedented as Kipchoge’s record over the last ten years. You can start with Gebrselassie, who went entirely undefeated at 3k-10k both indoors and outdoors in ‘95, ‘97, ‘98, ‘99 and ‘00; Bekele in comparison can “only” make that claim for ‘07, ‘08 and ‘09. According to Wikipedia, Said Aouita won 115 of 119 races from September ‘83 through September ‘90, losing only to Cram at 1500, Olympic bronze medalist Alessandro Lambruschini at 3k steeple, Ereng and Cruz at 800, and world champion Yobes Ondieki at 5k. Farah raced less frequently on the DL circuit than Bekele or Geb, but was fairly unbeatable from 2011-2017 in those races as well. In different (but no less difficult to dominate?) disciplines, El Guerrouj, Morceli, Kipketer and Rudisha (from 2010-12 at least) basically took on all-comers and won 9 times out of 10. On the other hand, I think you’d find it impossible to find a marathoner whose competitive record even begins to approach what Kipchoge has done. No missing seasons, no DNFs, 10 of 12 wins at WMMs including one 2nd place to a confirmed doper running a WR, plus wins in Hamburg, Rotterdam and Enschede, plus two wildly impressive exhibitions, plus two dominant Olympic golds, over the course of ten years and apparently going as strong as ever. It’s just unlike anything that’s ever happened!—and unlike some, I consider his ten year track career as a significant addition to his body of work and case for the GOAT, not as a detriment to it.
One final note that’s a little out of place. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Kipchoge’s WMMs “pitted him against one or two truly super elite competitors” as some knock against him. He has won London, which perennially brings in the deepest field of marathon superstars, a record 4 times against fields including:
2015 - Wilson Kipsang, Dennis Kimetto, Stanley Biwott, Sammy Kitwara, Emmanuel Mutai
2016 - Stanley Biwott, Kenenisa Bekele, Ghirmay Ghebreselassie, Wilson Kipsang, Sisay Lemma, Dennis Kimetto
2018 - Shura Kitata, Mo Farah, Abel Kirui, Bedan Karoki, Kenenisa Bekele, Lawrence Cherono
And those just come from the results; I’m sure the start lists were even more stacked but most elite marathoners occasionally DNF. Kipchoge has readily taken on the strongest marathon fields ever assembled and he practically always wins, there’s no way around that.
So, by what standard can you accord great importance (as JWH did in that earlier thread) to Kipchoge's 2017 Berlin win but almost none at all to individual wins like Bekele's in Zurich (and of course Bekele had many, many more like that over the years)? If you add those items to Bekele's resumé and give them even a fraction of the weight given to Kipchoge's wins, it becomes that much harder to argue for Kipchoge as GOAT.
Thanks. Here is why I believe Kipchoge’s WMM record carries substantially greater weight than Bekele’s stellar record on the Golden League circuit.
A) When attempting to quantify and divvy out “Greatness,” I believe there’s only so much to go around for each era, each discipline and each form of achievement. What I mean by this is that, for example, if suddenly 3 or 4 new 1:41 800 guys cropped up and started trading off big wins, naturally I wouldn’t rank them all ahead of Coe, Snell or Juantorena—they’d be sharing the same slice of greatness. From a different angle, if every great 5k/10k runner who came along won double-gold at the Olympics (obviously they don’t, but Kohlemainen, Zatopek, Kuts, Viren, Yifter, Bekele and Farah all have) then that achievement starts to carry less weight. What I’m looking for in essence is the uniqueness of an achievement, or a lack of any historical comparison or anyone comparable in a particular sphere.
B) With that in mind, I don’t think Bekele’s 3k/5k record on the Golden League circuit is anywhere near as unique or unprecedented as Kipchoge’s record over the last ten years. You can start with Gebrselassie, who went entirely undefeated at 3k-10k both indoors and outdoors in ‘95, ‘97, ‘98, ‘99 and ‘00; Bekele in comparison can “only” make that claim for ‘07, ‘08 and ‘09. According to Wikipedia, Said Aouita won 115 of 119 races from September ‘83 through September ‘90, losing only to Cram at 1500, Olympic bronze medalist Alessandro Lambruschini at 3k steeple, Ereng and Cruz at 800, and world champion Yobes Ondieki at 5k. Farah raced less frequently on the DL circuit than Bekele or Geb, but was fairly unbeatable from 2011-2017 in those races as well. In different (but no less difficult to dominate?) disciplines, El Guerrouj, Morceli, Kipketer and Rudisha (from 2010-12 at least) basically took on all-comers and won 9 times out of 10. On the other hand, I think you’d find it impossible to find a marathoner whose competitive record even begins to approach what Kipchoge has done. No missing seasons, no DNFs, 10 of 12 wins at WMMs including one 2nd place to a confirmed doper running a WR, plus wins in Hamburg, Rotterdam and Enschede, plus two wildly impressive exhibitions, plus two dominant Olympic golds, over the course of ten years and apparently going as strong as ever. It’s just unlike anything that’s ever happened!—and unlike some, I consider his ten year track career as a significant addition to his body of work and case for the GOAT, not as a detriment to it.
One final note that’s a little out of place. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Kipchoge’s WMMs “pitted him against one or two truly super elite competitors” as some knock against him. He has won London, which perennially brings in the deepest field of marathon superstars, a record 4 times against fields including:
2015 - Wilson Kipsang, Dennis Kimetto, Stanley Biwott, Sammy Kitwara, Emmanuel Mutai
2016 - Stanley Biwott, Kenenisa Bekele, Ghirmay Ghebreselassie, Wilson Kipsang, Sisay Lemma, Dennis Kimetto
2018 - Shura Kitata, Mo Farah, Abel Kirui, Bedan Karoki, Kenenisa Bekele, Lawrence Cherono
And those just come from the results; I’m sure the start lists were even more stacked but most elite marathoners occasionally DNF. Kipchoge has readily taken on the strongest marathon fields ever assembled and he practically always wins, there’s no way around that.
Thanks for this. I see you place greater importance on "uniqueness" than I do, but that's a philosophical difference, and I can absolutely see where you're coming from. Personally, I think doing the same things, but better, than other GOAT contenders makes for a more compelling GOAT case (though that's not at all to dismiss Kipchoge's incredible and unprecedented marathon accomplishments). But that is of course just my subjective opinion.
As for your assessments of those London marathon fields, I totally agree: those fields were totally stacked and were effectively the real world championship of their respective year. I wasn't meaning to belittle those fields whatsoever; rather, I was trying to point out some of the weaker WMM fields Kipchoge has faced (e.g. some of the Berlin ones) and ask by what standard you can really value those wins substantially more than some of Bekele's most impressive GL/DL victories.
(I think one way to address this could be to say that those marathons featured a field all of whose members had tailored their training cycles to that particular race and were treating it like a championship, whereas the athletes in Bekele's GL/DL races were largely training through them in preparation for more important competitions down the road. On the other hand, because there are so many marathons each spring/fall, the top talent gets spread among them, whereas GL/DL meets are the focal point for everyone during whichever week they fall in the season, so there isn't any major talent dilution. The considerations get a bit complicated, I think!)
So, by what standard can you accord great importance (as JWH did in that earlier thread) to Kipchoge's 2017 Berlin win but almost none at all to individual wins like Bekele's in Zurich (and of course Bekele had many, many more like that over the years)? If you add those items to Bekele's resumé and give them even a fraction of the weight given to Kipchoge's wins, it becomes that much harder to argue for Kipchoge as GOAT.
IIRC, I was simply listing Kipchoge’s WMM wins.
Ah, my question in that older thread must have sprung from how I interpreted that list you laid out of Kipchoge's accomplishments. As I understood it, by noting down each individual WMM win, you were not only referencing Kipchoge's amazing consistency (certainly a major factor in his GOAT case) but suggesting that each individual win -- in and of itself, not as part of a longer winning streak -- substantially bolsters his case. Hence my feeling that if you were going to place great weight on those individual wins, you logically should be doing the same for some of Bekele's most impressive individual pro track wins.
But I likely didn't glean your intentions behind that original list, a misinterpretation that could have been fixed way more easily in actual conversation than in written-out posts on the internet!