This is a fair question too. I mean, I am not a huge fan of (usually) tactical olympic medals in general, and especially tend to discount it in the case of the marathon, where it is in general considerably weaker than the hypercompetitive London etc.
But is anyone really ready to consider what it would mean if Eliud won a third consecutive olympic marathon gold? Of course we're 3 years out, the wheels could come off anytime, anything could happen. But his odds look not just nonzero, but good. That's the kind of achievement that would elevate Eliud to celestial status. No historical precedent, and there would be a more than compelling case that it would never happen again. I like to look at it as the minimum required time to compile a comparable resume. Three olympic golds would mean you need to be prepared to win for nine years to even get in the conversation. Mindboggling stuff.
The winning all majors thing almost seems like a foregone conclusion at this point, but that's another amazing achievement. You would have to win for three years straight over every kind of course and circumstance to get in the same category. This says nothing of the four London wins, a feat that requires at a minimum four years to replicate, and also represents a record unlikely to ever be bettered. I do hope he comes back for that fifth London win, because that would really secure that legacy in an unthinkably stringent way.
You’re dreaming. Doesn’t have a single world cross gold. No WRs in the 10 or 5 either.
You’ve missed the point of his argument. Dominance in the 5/10/xc are highly correlated. Do you think Bekele’s achievements in this event grouping are greater than Kipchoge’s in the marathon? Maybe you do, but that’s the relevant comparison. A secondary comparisons would be Bekele’s achievements in the marathon versus Kipchoge’s in the 5/10/xc. Again, you may choose KB, but it’s close.
I wonder if the court of popular opinion has changed their minds on this at all since last July, or if I’d still be equally crucified. Last week, I was nearly hanged for suggesting that Kipchoge might’ve struggled with Evans Chebet on that particular Monday, while people tease “Fat Kenny” and ridicule Jos Hermens’s claims that he’s bent on “doing something special” his next time out.
I’m ready to resume this argument. Eliud Kipchoge is the greatest distance runner of all time.
I agree with it now. I used to think Bekele's record on the track (5 WC gold, 3 OG) put him ahead, but now that I've started paying more attention to marathons, I think Kipchoge has him beat. For starters, Kipchoge beat El G and Bekele in 2003. I think people give too much credit to 5k/10k compared to the marathon in this discussion. You get way fewer chances at the marathon, and no one has ever been close to as consistent as Kipchoge. What, 1 subpar race in 10 years?
The thing that really changed my mind was all his WMM wins. Now I think they're equivalent to WC golds. At London and Berlin, the best in the world are always there, and Kipchoge has always crushed the competition. On the track, Bekele could win 2 golds every 3/4 years. In the marathon, you get a chance to win 2 every year, but it's much harder to be consistent. There's a bit of a difference because on the track you have to do it within a few days, and 1/4 years you don't get a chance. Still, at the marathon, you have to be the best against a fresh field twice a year, 6 months apart. It calls for more consistency, which Kipchoge has, and Bekele doesn't. Plus, Kipchoge has won 9 WMMs, along with 2 Olympic Golds, so even if it's a bit easier to do it at the marathon, Kipchoge's pure dominance at the marathon is greater than Bekele's at the 5/10, both in terms of titles won, and the length of it.
The thing that puts it over the top for me is that Kipchoge has been at the top of the sport for almost 2 decades now, has redefined what being great at the marathon is, and was still world class on the track for a decade before switching to the marathon.
I think you can make a convincing argument that Kipchoge is better at the marathon than any athlete has ever been at their best event or sport period, running or otherwise. If he wins NY, Boston and Paris, it will be a lock. That’s the epitome of being the goat.
Kipchoge's marathon record is already unrivaled and very likely no one alive now will see him surpassed, with Olympic gold x3 the optional cherry on top. That being said, it would be a great narrative arc if he lost at Boston or NYC and needed multiple attempts to secure the WMM x6.
There is one thing that tilts the all-around GOAT in favor of Bekele though: 2:01:41. I don't think I need to elaborate any more on that.
You’re dreaming. Doesn’t have a single world cross gold. No WRs in the 10 or 5 either.
You’ve missed the point of his argument. Dominance in the 5/10/xc are highly correlated. Do you think Bekele’s achievements in this event grouping are greater than Kipchoge’s in the marathon? Maybe you do, but that’s the relevant comparison. A secondary comparisons would be Bekele’s achievements in the marathon versus Kipchoge’s in the 5/10/xc. Again, you may choose KB, but it’s close.
Hicham won the 1500 and 5000 four days apart, "late" in his career. Therefore, he's the track GOAT.
Kipchoge the marathon goat, but I can still think of a couple big races he wouldn't win, had he been there.
I love how John Wesley Harding, holomorphic, Wise Old Man, etc. completely ignored the rebuttal I offered on the last page (pasted below), likely because they're well aware that their arguments about KB can only be successful if they creatively erase some major aspects of his career (XC dominance, Golden League dominance).
Pasted post:
You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.
And you're leaving out the fact that Bekele's records have been broken only with the aid of supershoes and perfect wavelight pacing. Give prime-era Bekele that technology and it's clear he'd beat Cheptegei's marks.
Finally, you (and basically everyone on this thread) are overlooking the fact that Bekele more or less dominated the Golden League meets for years, often against fields nearly as competitive as those of Olympics finals. That's not as meaningful as winning Oly medals, but beating guys like Sihine, Kipchoge, Tadesse, Kipsiro, Lagat etc. week after week for years on end doesn't count for nothing.
As others have said, those arguing in favor of Kipchoge are relying largely on recency bias, having either forgotten about or deliberately overlooked major parts of what made Bekele's dominance so impressive.
You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.
El G is king of the mile, but "middle distance" encompasses a lot more than that... As discussed in this thread Komen alone trumps him on 3k, 2 mile, and 5k (Yes I know El G lucked his way into Oly 5k gold) and still with a 3:46 mile to boot
Bekele (2000-2010) v Kipchoge 2010-present): Massive and impressive accomplishments by both. I give the nod to Kipchoge. Certainly if he manages to win NY, Boston and Paris, but even without.
Bekele (2011-present) v Kipchoge (2000-2010): Again Kipchoge’s accomplishments are more impressive. Neither was a world beater, but still both very solid.
And...crickets, proving my point that these guys have no rebuttal.
Their arguments only work if they pretend that large parts of KB's career simply didn't happen.
+1.
If you believe Kipchoge is the GOAT, you should start your argument by listing Bekele’s accomplishments.
You’ll either out yourself as lacking the required historical context or end up convincing yourself that Bekele is simply better.
It boils down to this argument. From 2003-2009 Bekele was basically unbeatable at 5/10 on the biggest stages, against the best comp, and on any surface, and from 2014-present Kipchoge has been unbeatable in the marathon. If you value the former over the latter, you pick KB. I don’t. Others have approached KB’s accomplishments in one way or another (Viren, Geb, Komen, Farah). Nobody has remotely done what Kipchoge continues to do. Outside of those years for each, they still have notched some notable wins and times, but they’ve been or were mortal. Look at their “Off” years carefully. Kipchoge did better overall.
Bekele has better PRs, dominated the track consistently for a decade, having a dominant head to head record against kipchoge. Then in the twilight of his career and diminished he missed prime Kipchoge’s marathon WR by 2 seconds.
double Olympic and double world champ beats 1x world champ+2 Olympic marathon champs
oh yeah and ELEVEN time world XC champ when it was insanely competitive.
if Bekele had super shoes and ran 2 seconds faster than he did at Berlin in 2019 we’d be talking about a guy who holds the 5k/10k/marathon records simultaneously.
you’re trying to simplify the argument to that it’s “marathon vs 5k/10k” when it’s not. Plus Bekele was better at the other’s primary distance while being a shadow of his former self.
There’s a reason why you are getting super downvoted. You’re kidding yourself if you genuinely think kipchoge is all around the better runner. There’s levels to this
Plus if Bekele hadn’t been absolutely diminished by injuries over the last 12 years he’d likely have even more wins and Olympic titles, dare I say beating kipchoge at Rio as well.
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