Finish line is 300 meters from start slightly downhill.
Finish line is 300 meters from start slightly downhill.
Approx. 250 but who's counting ;) That is a fair point; I was hoping to point out that as the total difference is 5 feet or less on the parallel straightaway, this would be counted as a looped course (especially as the 6k, 8k, and 10k are looped here) rather than a point to point aided course in the grand scheme of things.
Thanks again.
I'm moving on. To be clear I never claimed this is not a valid record. Again it goes in the books. What I and others claimed is that this was a record helped significantly by the course design, that it was a very good but not a great xc performance, and this is directly borne out by the speed rating of 166 (which I believe is too generous; in prior years 167 yielded 15:45 on this course) and the relative times. (Again you cannot just brush 32 sub 15s in a single race under the table).
And we now have had very specific information about why this opinion is correct beyond the SR. A 5k course in 3.107 miles. According to someone intimately familiar with the course design, the first mile is downhill. The second mile is undulating with no steep hills and with the expected result of losing 10-15 seconds off the 1st mile time. The third and final mile is again downhill, with a section of 250 meters on a downhill grade of 3.5%. So regardless of any alleged "net" result, this is primarily a downhill course, with 2 out of the 3 miles downhill. This explains the splits very well, and why the runners seem to be gaining in the final mile which prompted speculation of a short course.
Not every top national runner gets to run on a super fast course. I think Tuohy got to run on one "fast" course her entire high school career when she opened her 2019 season at the Great American. Even after injury and a break in training she ran 16:22 and if she runs that course in November of her senior year she probably breaks 16 right then and there given that she was still running 170 SRs and did a likely 172-173SR at US Club Nationals. But so it goes. I think the other top girl runners this year would also have had a shot at sub 16 on this course. But life is about showing up I guess.
I think Astro summed it up quite nicely: Cross Country is ultimately about competing against your competition on the day. There are fantastic historical performances from Terre Haute (Thorvaldson's CR was incredible in that weather), to Woodward Park and everywhere in between. Kudos to all the young athletes that have persevered through the spring and fall and continue to work hard to better their dreams and ambitions, both on and off the courses. The comparisons of everything are fun, however practically impossible to compare perfectly accurately (even as cool as speed ratings are!).
It's been a fun conversation all y'all (that's the plural version of "Y'all"). All the best to the coaches and athletes competing anywhere and everywhere over the next seasons.
Jenna ran 16:25 in her first race of 2020, so I don’t see that a 27 second improvement over a season that startling. In addition, the course isn’t completely flat. There’s a gradual uphill followed by a downhill. The course is not a “net downhill”. That’s not possible based on where the start and finish are located. Footing yesterday was very firm and conditions were excellent.
astro wrote:
Thanks again.
I'm moving on. To be clear I never claimed this is not a valid record. Again it goes in the books. What I and others claimed is that this was a record helped significantly by the course design, that it was a very good but not a great xc performance, and this is directly borne out by the speed rating of 166 (which I believe is too generous; in prior years 167 yielded 15:45 on this course) and the relative times. (Again you cannot just brush 32 sub 15s in a single race under the table).
And we now have had very specific information about why this opinion is correct beyond the SR. A 5k course in 3.107 miles. According to someone intimately familiar with the course design, the first mile is downhill. The second mile is undulating with no steep hills and with the expected result of losing 10-15 seconds off the 1st mile time. The third and final mile is again downhill, with a section of 250 meters on a downhill grade of 3.5%. So regardless of any alleged "net" result, this is primarily a downhill course, with 2 out of the 3 miles downhill. This explains the splits very well, and why the runners seem to be gaining in the final mile which prompted speculation of a short course.
Not every top national runner gets to run on a super fast course. I think Tuohy got to run on one "fast" course her entire high school career when she opened her 2019 season at the Great American. Even after injury and a break in training she ran 16:22 and if she runs that course in November of her senior year she probably breaks 16 right then and there given that she was still running 170 SRs and did a likely 172-173SR at US Club Nationals. But so it goes. I think the other top girl runners this year would also have had a shot at sub 16 on this course. But life is about showing up I guess.
Very good, but not "great"? Whether Hutchins record is better than Tuohy's previous record based on the relative courses or not, this definitely falls within the category of great performances.
As Bruce pointed out earlier, the 32 sub 15s is a result of having a lot of elite guys on a fast course in good conditions. You had the #1 ranked guy in the country racing against a front runner who forced the pace from the gun along with a lot of guys who ran very tough to stay in the lead pack. The course record prior to yesterday was 14:36 which was set by a guy who ran 9 flat last year indoors in a relatively slow race until the last few laps that also ran 4:10 for 1600 in 2019 as a 10th grader. He only finished 14th yesterday. The guy who finished 17th yesterday has run 8:57 on the track so the field was certainly very deep.
DougC wrote:
Jenna ran 16:25 in her first race of 2020, so I don’t see that a 27 second improvement over a season that startling. In addition, the course isn’t completely flat. There’s a gradual uphill followed by a downhill. The course is not a “net downhill”. That’s not possible based on where the start and finish are located. Footing yesterday was very firm and conditions were excellent.
That 16:25 was run in very warm, humid weather on a course that is at least 20 seconds slower than the NXC course in Huntsville. If anything, the 16:25 might be slightly more impressive given how slow the conditions were that day and the relative speed of the courses. Lots of people who ran in the meet where she ran 16:25 ran a minute+ faster in the race yesterday.
Jenna is an awesome young lady but guys let's be serious you have records to things that are consistent and easily comparable
You don't have records of things that have incredibly different degrees of difficulty
It's a solid performance on a really fast course. She's run better more impressive efforts, she had higher speed ratings I believe
It's a nice title to say fastest all-time outdoor 5K on an outdoor course. It's a title or a designation of notoriety. There's a difference between running on Golf Course Fairways with a little slope and an actual Cross Country course
Anyway like I said Jenna is awesome kudos to her for a solid effort and continued success but all the Fanboy hype needs to chill and let's not start giving out trophies of greatest in the world to every achievement
SCPF wrote:
Whatever the GPS watches are saying you can subtract 0.05 to 0.10 miles from that because GPS watches always give a reading that is longer than the actual distance. A true 5k will always come out around 3.15-3.2+ on a GPS watch. If I had to guess without actually measuring the course I would say it is around 3.05-3.07 miles but that is just a guess.
No, my GPS watch often gives a shorter reading. I've run several races on official 400m tracks used to hold professional races. A more accurate statement is that the *typical* GPS watch, more often than not, gives an overestimate of distance, but it varies from watch to watch and run to run. If most GPS watches are reading 3.09-3.14, I'd guess it probably closer 3.09, but I doubt it would be shorter.
Mary Cain Katelyn Tuohy Alexa efraimson and Mary Decker slaney have all the High School bling as far as I can see
Maybe one or two other names could be added?
But anyway as to records either get a legit High School record in a high school race without Pacers or get a separate designation of a pro race run by a high schooler for any races with professionals or Pacers
As to cross country as I said each course has its own record and it's meaningless to compare them unless you're going to go by speed ratings are some standard like that
Agreed. Throw in Francie Larrieu in that mix.
astro wrote:So regardless of any alleged "net" result, this is primarily a downhill course, with 2 out of the 3 miles downhill.
Holy thick-headedness. It has been explained that significant elevation is gained in the second mile and that the course starts and ends at very nearly the same elevation. No matter how you try to justify your absurd conclusion it is still false. Any course that gains significant elevation is going to be slower than a course that gains less elevation, all else equal (obviously impossible outside of the theoretical but we are essentially discussing the real course and astro’s imagined course here anyway). The more you are climbing the longer you are running slower for a given effort.
Note that I have no skin in this other than being hugely impressed by the performances I keep reading about, whether Tuohy, Hutchins, or any of the other fast females.
GoodStart wrote:
Crazy, right? She'll be an unbelievable marathoner someday should she choose that route.
seems highly unlikely. she won't run faster than 2:30. who's the fastest female american shuffler? kara? 2:25 w the wind at boston? and kara generated far more power than hutchins. maybe hutchins doesn't even crack 2:32.
but i do like the game of having categories of runners--and could see at least 3 from the get-go: runners, shufflers, and super shufflers?
Correct me if I'm wrong this is a brand new course that was designed for a super-fast Time?
Let's face it people like headlines and press and notoriety and having a course that'll get you a record will get a lot of press
Someone post a course map if you can what is the elevation that the coarse gains and losses and how quick?
Also would you say that the footing basically Compares 2 running on a track and is a perfect Fairway type run
What makes cross country Tuff is running on trails with uneven footing and different surfaces with tough Hills and Steep inclines and declines
Also just variety and having to watch your footing and tight turns or just turns in general
From what I can see this was basically like running on a track comparable to Woodbridge California with incredibly gentle incline and Decline and no tight turns it all.
Basically the course is rated according to Tully speed ratings at 40 seconds faster then Katelyn Tuohy best performance. Which puts it about a minute and 30 seconds faster than the average course most people run at in a tough State like New York
So basically this course is probably about a minute faster than your average cross-country course in the United States maybe even more
Great performance, but-
1. There are no XC Records - only XC course records
2. There is no such thing as a certified XC course (as mentioned by a previous post).
3. There are no universally accepted procedure/protocol for measuring XC courses. This includes the measuring devices and where on the course you would actually measure. As compared to a certified road course where the SPR (shortest possible path) is measured.
Because of the various surfaces, one of the only true ways to determine the length of a xc course would be to measure it with a steel tape. One could get a relatively accurate measurement by using a high quality surveyors wheel and incorporating the following protocol:
- measure a long straight calibration course (300+ meters) with a steel tape on the same surface as the xc course
- calibrate the surveyors wheel against the calibration course at least 4 x
- carefully walk the course with the wheel, cutting all the tangents.
I used the above method in addition to measuring with a tape for the 2019 World Cross Country Championships in Aarhus, Denmark and came up within 2 meters of each for every 2k loop.
Forget about GPS devices and online fitness platforms.
No. It was explained that the second mile is rolling or undulating without any steep hills where a runner was expected to lose 10-15 seconds off the first mile time, that the first mile is downhill and the third mile involves a long downhill right to the final turn. That is what was explained and I don't think I am misstating anything. But whatever makes you happy.
Sorry guys courses designed for super fast times that make no effort to be a legitimate cross-country course don't count for any records or Talley's or whatever
In order to be a cross-country course you have to have Trails or legit Hills or combination of both. Some combination of turns trails and Hills to actually make it significantly harder than running on a track
Courses designed for Fast Times Like Woodbridge this course and that Texas milesplit course can go in their own category of grass track running courses. Outdoor grass Track Running courses
You are incorrect. Most states maintain XC records and most high schools maintain xc records and most colleges maintain xc records. If you list your schools and state. I will check and most likely disappoint you.
ContextisKing wrote:
Sorry guys courses designed for super fast times that make no effort to be a legitimate cross-country course don't count for any records or Talley's or whatever
People here are just mad they were slow in high school.
Are all the people on this thread either someone that ran in the race or who is Kid did
I mean who in their right mind would think that times on a fast flat Golf Course is the same as a time on a tough cross country course
Do you think times run at Woodbridge when someone PRS by a minute is somehow reflective of their real ability.