Matt Hart's new Nike book is great - Salazar once tried to kiss Kara Goucher and said Solinsky ran 26:59 because of thyroid meds

thyroid injections ... wrote:

You have responded to others but you have not denied that thyroid pills or thyroid injections lower body fat for sedentary individuals and athletes. Thyroid injections lower body more quickly than any banned diet pill supplement. Since most elite women runners, 1500m to Marathon tend to weigh less than 1.9 pounds per inch; since most elite male runners, 1500m to Marathon tend to weigh less than 2.1 pounds per inch, how can thyroid pills or thyroid injections not be performance enhancing?

I did not confirm it either. I don't know if that is true, or how it is relevant to a question on ethics.

WADA said it does not enhance performance. In any case drugs that enhance performance are allowed if they are not banned.

What is the issue with a diet pill, if it is not banned?

It hasn't been "debunked"; last statement I saw was from WADA's List Expert Group in 2017:

See also in

10 : 1 (Italy, 2017). That's why I wrote "to get hormone treatment, despite being healthy, just to be able to run faster", which I consider unethical, even if WADA - unlike the banned duo Brown and Salazar - currently thinks it does not help.

See also in

:

So you are trying to make the point with "no compelling arguments"? Just suspicions and concerns?

Forgive me if I stand with WADA and their expert group.

IDK, would you need to seek out a sketchy coach to hook you up with a shady doctor to help find a loophole in interpreting test values to get a prescription for Red Bull? IMO, the Gouchers (along with Hasay, Begley, Magness, Farah, etc.) should have been aware of Salazar's proclivities when they made the move to Portland and probably turned a willing blind eye and hoped the appearances were mere coincidence and the rumors were all unfounded. You had to be very intentionally isolated and insulated to not see the smoke from that fire. If you need some backchannel through a dishonest doctor to get the "allowable" substance, it's taking a shortcut not available to others. AW athletes had scripts from a doctor in Eugene for the roids they were injecting, too. It was a poorly kept secret, even if you weren't partaking you knew who was based on whose cars were parked in the lot at that doctor's office. Dr. Brown put photos of his famous athlete patients up on the walls of his office! These doctors don't care about the unethical level of harm they're allowing these patients, they only clamor for the status of associating with and aiding and abetting high level athletes.

rekrunner wrote:

So you are trying to make the point with "no compelling arguments"? Just suspicions and concerns?

Forgive me if I stand with WADA and their expert group.

I forgive you for not exercising critical thinking and blindly following authority, none of us can expand your abilities for you when you staunchly choose not to.

If EVERY SINGLE US sub 13 minute 5000m runner and sub 27 minute 10000m runner was on thyroid hormones when they ran those times, what do you conclude?

To anyone with a brain, it means they used Thyroid hormones as a performance enhancing drug and that it works.

If the worlds top distance coach, Alberto Salazar, attributes Solinski’s sub 27 10000m to thyroid hormones, what does that tell you?

Hint: they work and he could not have done it without them.

rekrunner wrote:

So you are trying to make the point with "no compelling arguments"? Just suspicions and concerns?

No. Demonstrated suspicions and concerns from a number of experts, btw., and

In 2017, at the WADA accredited antidoping laboratory of Rome, the athletes declaring to consume this kind of substances, was ten times higher compared to the prevalence of hypothyroidism in Italy.

and flying to corrupt doctors to get this special diagnosis to take hormone treatment despite being healthy, hoping to get faster.

All of that is very different from taking "multi-vitamins" and "diet-pills", though you pretend it's not.

But I fully understand that you claim to see nothing wrong there. That's your modus operandi after all.

God and country wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Thyroid hormones are not banned by WADA -- from an anti-doping perspective, this red-herring is a non-issue.

Legal does not equal ethical.

100% this, and coaches should be banned if caught encouraging prescription drug abuse.

Also, a question -If a coach is forcing their athletes to abuse prescription drugs for off-label uses with the threat of losing their funding, does that count as a SafeSport violation?

The DOCTOR and COACH are currently banned. What does that mean? It means they CHEATED!

Most athletes do not fly to see a doctor! WTF are you talking about!

Taking thyroid hormone is obviously an awesome performance enhancing drug. Just be a it’s not currently banned does not mean it works great. WADA might not be able to properly test for it, making them cautious about adding it to the banned list. I imagine it will eventually be banned. If athletes are abusing it, whether is works or not (clearly it does work), it is surely horrible for their longterm health and it should be banned to protect them. Plus, the best, strongest and natural athletes should win, not the ones with the best doctors compensating for their inherent weakness.

If you have asthma, tough cookies. You are weak. Strong natural athletes should win.

If you have low testosterone or other hormones, tough cookies. The natural athlete should win.

The real race is actually the longest, healthiest life you can live. Death is the real finish line. How many years are athletes cutting from their lives with all the hormones and asthma meds, and shiittee they put in their bodies.

I guarantee I will be able to beat Rupp at 60 years old. Alberto has a pace maker in his heart. While I’m looking for a pacemaker to pace me for a mile age group record, older than he is.

You are forgetting Flanagan who also had another great 5k season after being off form in 2009 after visiting..... dr brown

Most of Jerry’s team is on thyroid

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

So you are trying to make the point with "no compelling arguments"? Just suspicions and concerns?

No. Demonstrated suspicions and concerns from a number of experts, btw., and

In 2017, at the WADA accredited antidoping laboratory of Rome, the athletes declaring to consume this kind of substances, was ten times higher compared to the prevalence of hypothyroidism in Italy.

and flying to corrupt doctors to get this special diagnosis to take hormone treatment despite being healthy, hoping to get faster.

All of that is very different from taking "multi-vitamins" and "diet-pills", though you pretend it's not.

But I fully understand that you claim to see nothing wrong there. That's your modus operandi after all.

You are the one who just showed us that these "experts" with "suspicions" and "concerns" had "no compelling arguments".

While arguing it wasn't debunked, you simply made my point:

"The LiEG still considered that they were not performance enhancing"

"it was concluded that there were no compelling arguments to add these substances to the prohibited list."

The experts at UKAD and USADA haven't done their homework, so they get no credit.

I did not claim anything, but asked a simple question:

If it is not performance enhancing, and not banned, what exactly is the ethical issue?

How is it different than say, iron supplements or multi-vitamins?

Arguing Salazar and Dr. Brown are unethical, while that may be true, does not answer the question.

Would it be ethical with a different coach and a different doctor?

Arguing that it really is performance enhancing is both uncompelling, as you have shown, and irrelevant, and does not answer the question.

Performance enhancement per se is not an issue if the substance is not banned by WADA.

Attacking me also does not answer the question, but just shows me you have no answer.

If it is indeed "very different" as you say -- why is no one able to articulate what the differences are?

I don't think it matters with you rekrunner whether or not a substance is banned - your position seems to be that most of the banned substances are not performance enhancing anyway.

Case in point with EPO. It's a banned substance, and has been banned for decades, but yet you have repeatedly stated that it's not performance enhancing. Androgens and testosterone are banned substances and believe your position is they're not performance enhancing with distance runners? (only female runners).

Curious: Is there any banned substance on WADA's list that you think is performance enhancing with male distance runners?

rekrunner wrote:

If it is indeed "very different" as you say -- why is no one able to articulate what the differences are?

Several differences have been shown to you numerous times in this very thread. It is you who at first claimed that they were irrelevant, and now you troll even further by pretending that nobody even mentioned them.

But as usual, you are showing your true colors with your "may", trying to cast doubt on the classifications of these banned cheats as "unethical":

rekrunner wrote:

Arguing Salazar and Dr. Brown are unethical, while that may be true, does not answer the question.

Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself with your ongoing defense of these multiple anti-doping rule violators, especially the abusive drug cheat Salazar.

At least, it's consistent: if you are still not convinced that Salazar is unethical, then of course you see nothing wrong with athletes flying to selected doctors to get hormone treatment that they don't need for any medical reason.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

have to say it..... wrote:

I love it. Even though some of this is obvious to some of us, I feel an expose like this is just what the sport needs. I mean, look at anyone, ever, in trouble for PEDs. Not just running, everything. Bonds, Armstrong. All Nike. Nadal wears the swoosh. Not sure if he's juiced, but it ain't just running. I'm aware of 2 non-Nike convicted jocks. Ben Johnson and Alberto Contador. Shorter would say Cierpinski should be that list. Some of you could possibly name a few more. It's actually somewhat difficult to name juicers who are NOT part of this machine.

Bonds was with Fila in his record-setting days.

OK. I'll admit I don't watch baseball much. It is possible what you said is true. However, I've never seen a picture of him without Nikes on. Is there anyone in T&F since Ben Johnson in trouble without Nike's?

Since you lack the intelligence to discern the difference between using thyroid hormone and other non banned performance enhancing drugs like caffeine, I’ll spell it out for you.

Caffeine is readily available and legal to purchase without a prescription. You go go to your local coffee shop and buy some. Caffeine is a naturally occurring substance in many food products. It has little to no effect as an effective performance enhancing drug. It is safe to consume, and it won’t cause longterm health complications. It is acceptable and accessible to use. No one will be fired or banned for giving it to you.

To obtain thyroid hormone, you have to fly across the country, visit a doctor willing to violate his oath and break the law, under the instructions of a banned coach you have to manipulate the test by depleting yourself and lie to doctor about your condition. Then, you have to receive injections of a chemically created substance designed to help the truly ill. This can cause irreparable damage to your entire endocrine system. It is an amazingly effective performance enhancing drug that every single US sub 13 5000m and sub 27 10000m used to achieve this performance. It is not readily available and it is widely frowned upon. If you use it. your reputation is tarnished and you are labeled a cheater. The coach who advised you to use it will be banned and the doctor who gave it to you will be banned.

Now do you see the difference?

Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:

I don't think it matters with you rekrunner whether or not a substance is banned - your position seems to be that most of the banned substances are not performance enhancing anyway.

Case in point with EPO. It's a banned substance, and has been banned for decades, but yet you have repeatedly stated that it's not performance enhancing. Androgens and testosterone are banned substances and believe your position is they're not performance enhancing with distance runners? (only female runners).

Curious: Is there any banned substance on WADA's list that you think is performance enhancing with male distance runners?

It depends on the topic. Here the topic is thyroid hormone - a non-banned substance.

I see the difference -- it just doesn't look realistic.

Did Bernard Lagat use thyroid hormone? Paul Chelimo? Woody Kincaid? Lopez Lomong?

The "coach" and the "doctor" were not banned for thyroid hormone.

The differences were not ethical differences.

I re-read the responses finding answers in several categories: 1) arguing it was performance enhancing; 2) calling Salazar and Brown unethical; and 3) attacking me.

The first one was debunked, also by you, the second fails to understand the question, and the third is deflection.

"On-going defense" by saying "it may be true that they are unethical"? They were found guilty of multiple ADRVs, but I'm unaware of any verdict in a court of ethics. The point here is that the ethics of Salazar and Brown is not the question. It's another distraction to avoid answering the question.

have to say it..... wrote:

OK. I'll admit I don't watch baseball much. It is possible what you said is true. However, I've never seen a picture of him without Nikes on.

have to say it..... wrote:

Is there anyone in T&F since Ben Johnson in trouble without Nike's?

Plenty. Remember that Nike sponsors the majority of professional track athletes so just a blind sampling will get you more Nike track athletes than anything else.