My answer to the question...
rekrunner wrote:
I didn't say that, but I think it is not a bad answer.
I think the hypothetical matchup is each at their best.
Who is the greatest? wrote:
So you're saying that Coe had too much acceleration and change of pace for Aouita so long as he tucked in behind him in a non paced championship race, but that Aouita would be favoured to win in a WR attempt time trial? Which year is this? 84? 86? What if the hypothetical match up of the OP occurred in 81?
Alexei Vronsky wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Another uncalled-for jab?
I participated very little in this thread, and with even less interaction with "casual obsever". Looking back a few pages, I see he gave me two answers (I didn't ask for) and I agreed with both of them.
These threads are ruined by each and every one who brings up doping.
Looking at the subject, it is not about doping at all, but about who would win in this theoretical matchup.
It looks like for a long time, it was ruined by you, in an interminable debate with said88.
Yeah Coevett is still at it.
In a fast WR race over 1500m/mile, I believe Aouita would win with his stamina.
I think Aouita's endurance over 2000m and more was certainly better, but in terms of speed endurance up to the mile, I think Coe is nothing less than at least the equal of Aouita.
Coe was certainly capable of sub 3:30 as far back as 79; indeed his top 3 times were all run off terrible pacing, where the first lap was 54.0 and faster (on 2 occasions). In his 3:32.03 WR he was in front from 700m, and the pace before that point had been very uneven. In his 3:31.95 he basically solo ran from 300m (the pacer was already more than 6m in front by this stage), received no lap times and went through 400m in 52.4 and 800m in 1:49.1. Given the same circumstances and ridiculous early pace, I don't believe Aouita would have produced a faster final time.
From close analysis of some of their best runs over the distance, I consider both were capable of c. 3:28 flat and 3:44 high at their peaks.
Deanouk wrote:
Alexei Vronsky wrote:
Yeah Coevett is still at it.
In a fast WR race over 1500m/mile, I believe Aouita would win with his stamina.
I think Aouita's endurance over 2000m and more was certainly better, but in terms of speed endurance up to the mile, I think Coe is nothing less than at least the equal of Aouita.
Coe was certainly capable of sub 3:30 as far back as 79; indeed his top 3 times were all run off terrible pacing, where the first lap was 54.0 and faster (on 2 occasions). In his 3:32.03 WR he was in front from 700m, and the pace before that point had been very uneven. In his 3:31.95 he basically solo ran from 300m (the pacer was already more than 6m in front by this stage), received no lap times and went through 400m in 52.4 and 800m in 1:49.1. Given the same circumstances and ridiculous early pace, I don't believe Aouita would have produced a faster final time.
From close analysis of some of their best runs over the distance, I consider both were capable of c. 3:28 flat and 3:44 high at their peaks.
Impossible to predict.
Might as well flip a coin.
How accurate is this of Coe's training?
Baron Pym wrote:
How accurate is this of Coe's training?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT7wbOOppW4
Lol. Clearly a troll/piss take.
Deanouk wrote:
Baron Pym wrote:
How accurate is this of Coe's training?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT7wbOOppW4Lol. Clearly a troll/piss take.
What is your take on Coe's average mileage a week?
Appears there is myth of low mileage.
Baron Pym wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
Lol. Clearly a troll/piss take.
What is your take on Coe's average mileage a week?
Appears there is myth of low mileage.
Very true, he ran much more than what he originally claimed.
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5266747Keep this thread going wrote:
Baron Pym wrote:
What is your take on Coe's average mileage a week?
Appears there is myth of low mileage.
Very true, he ran much more than what he originally claimed.
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5266747
Yes keep this thread going.
What was Aouita's mileage when he was training for the 1500m and mile?
Baron Pym wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
Lol. Clearly a troll/piss take.
What is your take on Coe's average mileage a week?
Appears there is myth of low mileage.
I think, in very general terms, the 'confuson' over Coe's mileage has come about due to context.
The famous phrase by Peter Coe that, 'quality is far more important than quantity,' was first coined in respect of Coe's training as a junior. During his teens, when Coe was small for his age and a slow developer, Coe snr made his son train smartly without the over emphasis on heavy mileage for the sake of it. The training was intensified over a long period, and so was the mileage. He really hadn't fully developed until 21, compared to someone like Ovett, who was already physically mature at 17/18.
When Coe was interviewed by AW in (1978 IIRC!?) he was asked about mileage, and he made some reference to 36 miles a week, which on the face of it is very low, but I seem to recall it was after a period of injury and was going into the summer season. That idea, of him doing 30/40 miles a week might stem from this quote. In addition, he was also interviewed quite heavily after the 1979 season, for obvious reasons, and he commented then that his training just prior to his first WR (in early July) had been very light due to revising and sitting for his University exam finals. He wasn't doing much mileage at all during April- June that year, and any comment about the number of miles could be taken by some as being a reference to his average mileage throughout the year. He was clearly doing a lot more mileage in the winter of 78/79 than he was doing in the spring of 79!
The main difference between say Coe and Ovett's training by the time we get to the 1980's, was that during the winter Ovett would do more mileage, whereas Coe would supplement a reasonably high mileage (maybe 70/80 miles a week) with a lot of gym work, weights and sprint drills (which he maintained to some degree throughout the year). As the spring and summer approached Coe's mileage would drop, as high quality and intensity reps, gym work, sprints, etc became the main focus. A lot of other 800/1500 runners would maintain a mileage closer to their winter levels during the spring and summer.
In summary, I think Coe did do relatively high mileage during the winter (certainly for an 800m athlete), although not as many as some of the other leading milers in the world. The main difference to Coe's training mileage appears to have occurred in the spring and summer months, where it dropped quite considerably compared to others.
In the winter months before a 'double campaign', such as Moscow and Stuttgart, he certainly put in plenty of mileage.
As an overview, this is how I see it anyway.
Deanouk wrote:
Baron Pym wrote:
What is your take on Coe's average mileage a week?
Appears there is myth of low mileage.
I think, in very general terms, the 'confuson' over Coe's mileage has come about due to context.
The famous phrase by Peter Coe that, 'quality is far more important than quantity,' was first coined in respect of Coe's training as a junior. During his teens, when Coe was small for his age and a slow developer, Coe snr made his son train smartly without the over emphasis on heavy mileage for the sake of it. The training was intensified over a long period, and so was the mileage. He really hadn't fully developed until 21, compared to someone like Ovett, who was already physically mature at 17/18.
When Coe was interviewed by AW in (1978 IIRC!?) he was asked about mileage, and he made some reference to 36 miles a week, which on the face of it is very low, but I seem to recall it was after a period of injury and was going into the summer season. That idea, of him doing 30/40 miles a week might stem from this quote. In addition, he was also interviewed quite heavily after the 1979 season, for obvious reasons, and he commented then that his training just prior to his first WR (in early July) had been very light due to revising and sitting for his University exam finals. He wasn't doing much mileage at all during April- June that year, and any comment about the number of miles could be taken by some as being a reference to his average mileage throughout the year. He was clearly doing a lot more mileage in the winter of 78/79 than he was doing in the spring of 79!
The main difference between say Coe and Ovett's training by the time we get to the 1980's, was that during the winter Ovett would do more mileage, whereas Coe would supplement a reasonably high mileage (maybe 70/80 miles a week) with a lot of gym work, weights and sprint drills (which he maintained to some degree throughout the year). As the spring and summer approached Coe's mileage would drop, as high quality and intensity reps, gym work, sprints, etc became the main focus. A lot of other 800/1500 runners would maintain a mileage closer to their winter levels during the spring and summer.
In summary, I think Coe did do relatively high mileage during the winter (certainly for an 800m athlete), although not as many as some of the other leading milers in the world. The main difference to Coe's training mileage appears to have occurred in the spring and summer months, where it dropped quite considerably compared to others.
In the winter months before a 'double campaign', such as Moscow and Stuttgart, he certainly put in plenty of mileage.
As an overview, this is how I see it anyway.
Didn't Peter Coe add to this misconception?
"Long slow training turned you into a long slow runner."
I had Seb sign a copy of his dad's work, which has Aouita as the GOAT on the cover. Seb looked a little annoyed, but signed it anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Running-Successful-Racing-Training/dp/1852239972
jlj wrote:
I had Seb sign a copy of his dad's work, which has Aouita as the GOAT on the cover. Seb looked a little annoyed, but signed it anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Running-Successful-Racing-Training/dp/1852239972
Getting him to sign a photo of the Moscow 800m medal ceremony would've been even funnier.
jlj wrote:
I had Seb sign a copy of his dad's work, which has Aouita as the GOAT on the cover. Seb looked a little annoyed, but signed it anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Running-Successful-Racing-Training/dp/1852239972
Lol! Firstly, putting any athlete on the cover of a book not called, ‘The Greatest of all time’, does not make them the GOAT!
Secondly, that is not Aouita in the cover! It is Morceli.
The reason for him being on the cover was probably due to the date of the publication being sometime in the early ‘90’s, when Morceli was #1, and Coe was retired.
Deanouk wrote:
jlj wrote:
I had Seb sign a copy of his dad's work, which has Aouita as the GOAT on the cover. Seb looked a little annoyed, but signed it anyway.
Secondly, that is not Aouita in the cover! It is Morceli.
All these North African dopers look alike, so same difference really.
Relevant story from the Boston Marathon: was picked up in an Uber from Logan to head to the Copley, and within minutes I knew the driver was Moroccan based on his accent. Said he'd been in the States for 7 years. I then complimented his country by saying, Morocco produces some of the world's best distance runners, like Hicham El Guerrouj... and he lets out a nice scream, "Aouita! Said Aouita!!" and I said, yes, yes.. Aouita was a beast. I then mentioned Gharib, but he launched into "no one could be Aouita, no one."
kjalkj wrote:
Relevant story from the Boston Marathon: was picked up in an Uber from Logan to head to the Copley, and within minutes I knew the driver was Moroccan based on his accent. Said he'd been in the States for 7 years. I then complimented his country by saying, Morocco produces some of the world's best distance runners, like Hicham El Guerrouj... and he lets out a nice scream, "Aouita! Said Aouita!!" and I said, yes, yes.. Aouita was a beast. I then mentioned Gharib, but he launched into "no one could be Aouita, no one."
Aouita was the first Moroccan to be successful internationally.
So it is not surprising Moroccans love Aouita.
The British on the other hand though...
Deanouk wrote:
jlj wrote:
I had Seb sign a copy of his dad's work, which has Aouita as the GOAT on the cover. Seb looked a little annoyed, but signed it anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Running-Successful-Racing-Training/dp/1852239972Lol! Firstly, putting any athlete on the cover of a book not called, ‘The Greatest of all time’, does not make them the GOAT!
Secondly, that is not Aouita in the cover! It is Morceli.
The reason for him being on the cover was probably due to the date of the publication being sometime in the early ‘90’s, when Morceli was #1, and Coe was retired.
Speaking of books; Aouita is got one:
https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/special-methods-training-said-aouita/But this is got to be the best! I wonder if his training methods will guarantee an Olympic gold or World Championship? ?.........?
https://www.runnerprogram.com/product/rashid-ramzi-training-program/Morrocan Magic wrote:
Speaking of books; Aouita is got one:
https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/special-methods-training-said-aouita/
Hahaha.. Said Aouita and his 'special methods'. I think he's been sacked from the head coaching role at 3 different national federations now for producing abysmal results despite huge amounts of money being thrown at him and his athletes. He only lasted a few months in Australia and probably set them back a decade. And look at the junior talent coming through in Australia now.
I think Morrocan 'special methods' likely only work if you're full throttle blood doping or taking EPO, as well as HGH, steroids etc.
Morrocan Magic wrote:
But this is got to be the best! I wonder if his training methods will guarantee an Olympic gold or World Championship? ?.........?
https://www.runnerprogram.com/product/rashid-ramzi-training-program/
Ex-Runner has probably studied that, we should ask him to review it for us here.
Ramzi coached by Khalid Boulami, whose older brother was busted for EPO, and both in the same elite training group as El G that had 17 coaches, 3 doctors, 5 phsyiotherapists, multiple 'nutritionists' (making sure they all ate their peas and carrots).
How any of the idiots on here can still maintain that El G was clean is beyond me. And as Kiprop has shown, probably a 3:35 guy at best without all the peds, yet his 1500/mile WRs might still be unbreakable in 2050.
In a year, he will spend four months at altitude, for the quiet and the increased benefits in oxygen-carrying capacity. The rest of his training is done at sea level in Rabat. He is one of 92 athletes, men and women, in Morocco's elite training program, which provides for the athletes with 17 coaches, 3 doctors and 5 physical therapists. Nutritionists take care of the meals, the federation serves as his business manager and the training centers in Rabat and Ifrane both contain small mosques where el-Guerrouj, a devout Muslim, prays five times a day.
''He's one of the few people in the world blessed with unbelievable talent, he works incredibly hard, he's got a good support system and excellent coaching,'' said Steve Holman, America's top miler. ''They take care of everything. He doesn't have to worry about anything but training as hard as possible, and clearly he does.''
Not saying rekrunner is an idiot, but I believe he maintains that El G was clean. Lol. He may even believe Aouita was clean as a whistle. Now whether or not he still believes that or he was just clowning around to elicit debate is unknown (I'm sure he reads this thread so he can chime in and update his position if he wants to).
Most of the people I encounter who believe El G was clean are younger people who were too young or not even born yet to watch El G's performances. Many also aren't reseached enough with the history of the Morrocan doping culture. I had one youngster who was a college kid runner argue with me a couple of years ago at a gym I work out at insisting that El G is clean as they come. He reasoning was that El G never tested positive after 2000 when the EPO test was implemented while all the other fast Morrocans were testing positive in that decade. I pointed out to him that many other "fast" Morrocans and training mates of El G were not testing positive either. He said "really bro...I didn't know that" Lol.
So, it's a matter of education and historical record with some of these young people.
Some people think El G is Superman wrote:
Not saying rekrunner is an idiot, but I believe he maintains that El G was clean. Lol. He may even believe Aouita was clean as a whistle. Now whether or not he still believes that or he was just clowning around to elicit debate is unknown (I'm sure he reads this thread so he can chime in and update his position if he wants to).
Most of the people I encounter who believe El G was clean are younger people who were too young or not even born yet to watch El G's performances. Many also aren't reseached enough with the history of the Morrocan doping culture. I had one youngster who was a college kid runner argue with me a couple of years ago at a gym I work out at insisting that El G is clean as they come. He reasoning was that El G never tested positive after 2000 when the EPO test was implemented while all the other fast Morrocans were testing positive in that decade. I pointed out to him that many other "fast" Morrocans and training mates of El G were not testing positive either. He said "really bro...I didn't know that" Lol.
So, it's a matter of education and historical record with some of these young people.
WR holders from the 1990's - 2000's from 800m to the marathon - who is clean? If any.
Kipketer?
Morceli?
El Guerrouj?
Gebreslassie?
Komen?
Tergat?
Hissou?
Kiptanui?
Barmasai?
Boit Kipketer?
Shaheen?
Da Costa?
Khannouchi?