Lydiard Imitations

gypsy wrote:tell us about the athletes you've coached Antonio. Tell us about the 209 marathoner you coached.

Antonio Cabral wrote:Sorry. I got no files, records, anything written of my runner schedules. I don´t keep it.

Of course, it is a lie so you have no records. But we dont need records, you have your memory.

So from memory, can you explain how you coached someone to a 2:09 marathon please.

Don´t insist, you are waist your time with me.

Why don´t you post you schedules. I don´t posts by demand. I just post what i want, when i want.

HRE wrote:

"Your" intentionally obtuse and argumentative.

\

Run away from the questions and their own contradictions with appeal of semantics.

But it doesn't have to be part of a training methodology discussion.All this talk of drugs, plus the personal attacks against Antonio and Renato have effectively derailed the conversation about training.Can't we have a "clean" discussion, and see how far that can take us?

HRE wrote:

Drugging IS part of modern training methodologies, at least in some cases, as is professionalism.

eurodonkey wrote:

Just out of interest, did you do those in a single set?

And were they full range?

fast and springy, or slow like lifting weights?

What made me committed to do those 100 calf raises was reading an interview with Anders Gärderud where he said "Calf raises are a runner's best friend" and (addressing the average Joe Marathoner) "Doing 100 calf raises is better than adding 5 km to your run."

He didn't however say how they should be done, so I started to do as many as I could which was 10 with my weaker left and 15 with my right (and had a slight hobble the following day), which was eventually extended to 4x30 w/left and 3x40 w/right. At that point I thought it was probably pointlesss to pursue further.

Full range and slow, deliberately slow on the downward movement. (But never any extra weights.)

PS it helps if one has a certain monomaniac streak...

I assumed for the sake of argument. Of course we don't know. We don't know a great many things in life, but yet we can still make informed conclusions. What do we know? Geb's long term successful athletic career doesn't look like the kind typically associated with drug use, with short-term career with burnout, and uncharacteristically high peaks:- Geb has had a long career, and has been at the top since 1992, as a junior, until his 2008 marathon world record.- There was no single "breakthrough" event, but a study progressive improvement of performance, and continuous domination.While I can't rule out that he had advanced, yet secret "Armstrong-esque" medical support and PR and legal team for the whole of his career, starting as a junior, I don't base my naive assumption merely on his smile. I would smile too if I broke just half the world records he did, and earned half the money he did.

Alberto Contadoro wrote:

Dont assume, its worthless, the fact is we dont know.

I shake my head each time i hear this and this guy must be clean, he is nice, smiles pretty etc, or this and that guy must be doping, he looks ugly, is mean and dont give interviews.

There are dopers that were the nicest guys you can imagine, this i know for sure.

And there are bad guys. Like everywhere else.

When I read the last posts, I understood Gipsy and HRE are not honest people. I can’t consider honest who, as Gipsy, says something completely wrong for supporting his opinion, insulting other persons (that he doesn’t know) and giving informations not responding to the truth.

First thing, he doesn’t know Italy is one of the very few Countries where doping is under the penal law : if you give doping, or you are caught positive (if an athlete), you go in jail and/or have a very high financial sanction (remember what happened to the Austrian coach of sky runners during Olympic Winter Games in Torino 2006, or the fact the Spanish Valverde is not allowed to compete in Italy). So, Italy is one of the Countries with the higher level of fighting doping, and who speaks about the contrary or doesn’t know (and in this case must be silent) or is a liar.

Secondly, I’m curious to see the list of my athletes burnt after 3 years. Instead, my list includes :

Saaeed Shaheen, World Junior Record Holder with 7’58”81 of steeple in 2001, World Champion 2003/05, WRH with 7’53”63 in 2004, winning of steeple and 5000m (only athletes able to do it) in the World Cup 2006 (and are 6 years, in 5 of them with a list of 27 following victory without never being defeated). And he didn’t stop in 2007/2008 for some reason connected with training, but for an injury in the left knee due to an impact with the door of his car…

Paul Kosgei, World Junior RH of steeple in 1997, medal in short cross in 1998/1999, World HM Champion 2002, WRH of 25k 2004, PB in HM (59’07”) in 2006 and in Marathon in 2010 (14 years)

Moses Mosop, with me from 2002, bronze in 10000 (WCh 2005), Silver in Cross (2007), PB in HM in 2010, WR 25/30k in 2011, best performers all time as debutant in Marathon (2:03:06) and winner Chicago (2011) (10 years till now…)

Sylvia Kibet, starting with me after having a baby in 2005, silver medal in 5000m in WCh 2009/2011, 4th in OG 2008 and in World Indoor in 3000m in 2010 (already 7 years…)

Maura Viceconte, starting with me in 1986 when 19, first time in Italian National Team in 1995 (World Marathon Cup), bronze medal in Marathon (European Championships 1998), National Records in both Marathon (2:23:47) and 10000m (31:05.54) in 2000m, PB in HM (1:09:18) in 2001, finishing her career in European Championships 2002 (10000m) when 35 (and are 17 years…)

Maria Curatolo, starting in 1983, Italian Record Holder 10000m in 1986 (32’04”in European Ch.), Italian Record Holder HM in 1987, bronze medal WCh 15k Road in 1987, 8th in Olympic Marathon 1988. After 3 years out of the competitions for a very bad car accident, she came back in 1992, and after this won silver medal in Marathon (ECh 1994), and went still to OG in Atlanta 1996. She finished her career in 1998, when 35 (16 years…)

Ornella Ferrara, starting with me in 1993, bronze medal in WCh 1995 (Marathon), PB in 2005 when 37, current Italian Champion of Mountain Race (now is 43…)

Dorcus Inzikuru, starting with me in 1999, World Junior Champion 5000m in 2000, World Champion 3000st in 2005, Commonwealth Games Champion in 2006. At the end of 2007 she had a baby, and after came back at lower level (9’50”) due to little training (she is doing the University) and a surgery she had for her nose, that didn’t have good success and limited her training and her ability in competing.

James Kwalia, starting with me in 2002, World Junior Record Holder of Mile (3’50”36) in 2003, PB in 3000m of 7’28”28 in 2004, bronze medal in 5000m (WCh) 2009 (8 years, and still competes…)

Nicholas Kemboi, starting with me in 2001, PB of 26’30” in 2003, 26’51” in 2005 when was spiked during WCh and had a serious problem to his Achilles tendon. Now, we are in 2012, he ran his first marathon with very little training in 2:08:01, and we wait for next Spring (are 10 years…)

Lydia Cheromei, one of the best juniors already in 1992, now running marathon when 36, wait and see Dubai on 27th Jan

Thomas Longosiwa, started with me in Iten in 2004, in 2011 could win bronze medal in WCh if didn’t fall with 550m to go, was still able to arrive 2” behind the bronze, that probably could be for him without that accident (and are already 8 years…)

I have may be other 50 athletes able to last longer than 10 years, of international level but not so important. And, of course, the young and strong athletes I have at the moment (Silas Kiplagat, Florence Kiplagat, Leonard Kosencha, Geoffrey Kirui etc…) are now in the 4th year with me…. So we have to wait if they are able to finish this season, or if I burn them before the end of this year.

What can I say about somebody cheating for demonstrating he’s reason ? That is not honest, is motivated only by some not justified hate against somebody having success with passion, specific knowledge, professionalism and wish to help the athletes. For that reason, I don’t see any reason for continuing to discuss with a liar.

About HRE, his answer about the possibility the athletes following Lydiard can use PED (no way) is emblematical. Why can he be sure about this fact (that I accept) ? Because the behavior of Lydiard about the ethic was so strong that all the athletes following his training followed his ethic values, too.

This is ok for me. But it’s the same thing I do with my athletes : ethical values are the base of every action they need to do in their life. So, why for the athletes of Lydiard this is ok, for my athletes not ?

And, about the possibility somebody can improve from 2:09 till 2:05 because uses EPO, this is a clear demonstration that HRE doesn’t know anything about the real effects of doping and training. This is a very dangerous position for new athletes, because is the best way for putting in their mind the doubt that with only training is not possible to reach their top.

So, I can accept to speak about with these PERSONAGES only when can be promoted from their current role of DAMAGEOUS and NOT HONEST PEOPLE to the role of USELESS. That, looking at their mentality and knowledge, can be the higher level they can reach.

Final note : how long the career of Jim Ryun, Herb Elliot and of the same Peter Snell did last ? May be that in some case there are in the life of athletes other choices, than to continue for 15 years the same thing ?

Renato, good to hear Nicholas Kemboi is back racing seriously.

Gipsy, your posts have no interest at all. This thread has keep going because of Mr. Canova and Mr. Cabral. Why do you insult them?

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

When I read the last posts, I understood Gipsy and HRE are not honest people. /quote]

Renato, that is something that becomes more & more apparent with each post they make.

For my part, I come on to this message board as a coach to broaden my understanding of training methodology. I am very familiar with the Lydiard method/philosophy (having read most of his books), & I like much of it. I enjoyed Keith Livingstone's book (Healthy Intelligent Training)& felt that it provided much colour on the practical application of Lydiard thinking.

However, what you (& Antonio) offer on this board is not available in book form (except for a similar approach in Brad Hudson's book, Running Faster). Your detailed explanation of what you do and the examples of training followed by real life world class athletes are an invaluable resource for a coach such as myself. Obviously, I cannot apply it directly to my athletes (who are younger & less able than those that you work with), BUT I can look for patterns, ideas, strategies, methods that I can adapt in my own coaching.

So, please do realise that your posts (& those of Antonio) are very much appreciated by the majority of readers, & that those who oppose & snipe are blind and delusional ... & probably haven't even bothered to examine your training methods in any detail.

If we're going to talk about honesty, let's comment on what someone actually says rather than on something we've decided they said. Where did I ever say it was ok for a Lydiard trained athlete to use drugs? Of course it isn't. We know of one who did fairly recently. She was caught and suspended and that is what should have happened.

What I keep trying to say is that when there is something significant to be gained by cheating there will be people who cheat and others who will resist the temptation. But the presence of those who cheat in a sport, if undetected, make it impossible to evaluate preparation methods relative to those who don't cheat.

In our game of baseball, it was once believed that weight lifting was detrimental to one's ability to hit the ball. That's no longer the case and so baseball now not only lift weights, some also use steroids. So we can't measure how much weight lifting has improved hitting in the game and the problem is compounded because we don't know which hitters only lift weights and which ones lift weights and use steroids. So any discussion of how lifting weights has improved hitting the baseball now in comparison to the "no weights" era can only go so far.

The same is the case in our sport. If someone pops a 2:01 marathon this year, whether he does your training, Igloi's, Classic Lydiard, Modified Lydiard, Japanese Lydiard, or anything else, we can only note that this is how he trained. We cannot know how much of that time is due to training as compared to innate ability, pacemaking, financial incentives, various modern aids to performance, either legal or illegal so we can't say that the guy ran faster than everyone else simply because he went faster than anyone else.

Rekrunner asked if we can't have a "clean discussion" about methodology. I think we can to some point. But when you try to decide if today's faster performances are because we now have better training you run into the same problem as you do in trying to decide how much lifting weights improves a baseball player's hitting. You can't. There are other possible reasons for the improvements.

I understand that drugs are a touchy issue and sadly this discussion has and pacemaking.

I'm sorry if you feel I've insulted you. That's not my intention but I simply cannot accept the idea that people are faster now than they once were because older training was inferior.

Antonio,

That's an impressive set of ingredients.

I realise that you cannot offer us a "recipe" as the recipe will be different for each athlete from day to day depending on his/her strengths/weaknesses & shape condition.

I think there is a misunderstanding amongst many posters here about the "modern" race pace training methodology. Some post as if what you & Renato do is force athletes to do ALL of their training at "race pace" ... all of the time. They clearly have not bothered to examine the examples that you and Renato have provided.

I recall some training plans that Renato gave a while back on Moses Mosop's training for a three month period that included his win in the Kenyan XC Championships. What was startlingly evident was the summary of the training paces where 50% of training mileage was classified as "regenerative", & more than 90% as being in the "aerobic" range (10K pace or slower)

Would you be so kind as to state for a similar athlete (XC / 10,000m runner) in your care, what percentage of your training would you classify as "aerobic" in each of the different phases (Basic / Special / Specific)?

This might well help to clarify (for some) the holistic nature of the modern methodology.

HRE wrote:

If we're going to talk about honesty, let's comment on what someone actually says rather than on something we've decided they said. Where did I ever say it was ok for a Lydiard trained athlete to use drugs?

Once again, a question of semantics. You just use 2 diffrent weights and 2 different measures - 2 diffrent kind of analysis and comment - depending if you analyse somethig pro Lydiard or con Lydiard.

HRE wrote:

.... but I simply cannot accept the idea that people are faster now than they once were because older training was inferior.

Richard,

This is the crux of your problem .... hanging on to an "outdated" training method.

No one is saying that in the 1960s Lydiard Training was inferior ... quite the opposite, it was the "gold plated" version BUT that was 50 years ago!!

Look around you .... the car you drive is much superior to the car you would have driven in 1960. Same for your household appliances, entertainment systems etc.. We are conversing through a medium that did not exist 50 years ago.

Things EVOLVE, & in general as our knowledge increases IMPROVE ....

Why not the same for the training methods of distance runners?

Lydiard's approach was fine at a time of few competitive opportunities, when athletes also had to learn a living often in manual occupations. Things are DIFFERENT now, & the training has EVOLVED/IMPROVED to accommodate these changes ... with the result that people adopting the newer training methodology are running FASTER.

Where is Wetcoast now to defend Renato from rubbish posts and offensive posts as he did on the first pages of this thread when Renato just said to HRE “shut out” ?

I don´t need no one defend me, i´m immune to every kind of verbal aggressively, rubbish posts or verbal or write offense. I really don´t matter. But because i´m got imunity to offense, I hate when someone is offended.

Renato. Finnaly it took time that you express and write what I know long ago; Lidiardism mental dishonesty of some (not all).

I don´t want generalize or accuse innocents, because on this matter the responsibility is individual not collective or group the ones that are innocent.

But some Lydiardists on this board are funny people without dignity and honesty and their Lydiard obsession make them not able to be impartial about every training subject.

At that point they have mental dishonesty. The lack/miss of impartiality is mental sickness.

They got two weights and two measures, if someone is pro or con Lydiardism. This got nothing to do with defend Lydiard, be a Lydiardist or be engaged on Lydiard organization.

This behavior is just mental dishonesty.

Let me answer for the Lydiardism. They will answer you that Peter Snell was just an poor ammateur runner as the NZ marathon runner that did just 2:16 because he was ammateur runner works all day long.

About Jimmy Ryan and Herbert Elliot they were ammateurs as well, but they didn´t last longer because they were smasshed by poor training, whem Peter did the very rich training, the Lydiard one, and it´s why Peter did last longer tahn Jimmy and Herb. This is the way the Lydiardism see things.

Aerobic ercentage of what ? Mileage (volume percent) ?

I don´t think about total mileage or aerobic fixed mileage as some they do (60mile, 80miles, Lydiard 100miles) or mileage percent from every kind of training unity.

My main approach is to build the workouts first (but wait I don´t say that I just do workouts, I do workouts combined with daily runs, generic workouts mostly done during the generic phase , the special workouts mostly done during the special phase, and the specific workouts (those mostly done during the specific phase), This on the top of my priority and my discrimination and selection.

Need to repeat that despite the workouts can be defined by each phase you are doing, other kind of workouts might be built. For example during the generic phase I might be run special or specific workouts. Otherwise during the special phase I might do a few generic or special workouts. All depends of my analysis and interpretation of each individual runner.

There the aerobic runs, I use it daily and the runner do it´s what can be done to complete the workouts. The more the better, with parsimony and try to avoid injury or overtraining and the necessary over/super compensation. I don´t think about training as mileage stuff. However it happens that some my runners train twice a day or they do more than 100miles a week. Besides the total mileage volume it depends how fast all that miles (the workout ones and the daily runs) are done, in what pace are done.

Another question is that some workouts are at the same time aerobic and anaerobic in the percent.

What I might say it´s that as fast as the season goes further,more specific workouts are done normally than on the early phase .

About the total mileage on every phase of periodization. First, the flow of the training depends on how the athlete is progressing, and is not strongly influenced by the artificial temporal structure of race seasons. Also the notion of regularly repeat the same typical cycles, whether on an annual basis, or within some more complex I say that I don´t follow microcycles, mesocycles etc. The various "phases" or cycles of training take as long as they take, and are pre-determined set periods.

The basic philosophy is build races and specifics around the athlete, rather than build the athlete within the racing schedule.

I don´t use long tapper. Might be the mileage decreases just the last week to 10 dys prior one goal competition and 3 -4 days prior minor interest competitions.

Normally the dynamic aerobic training continues on every phase, doesn´t decrease as much as I see the Lydiard training does, just soft mileage decrease.

The "improved" things you mention are gadgets. They have changed and improved with time. The human body is the same now as it was in 1960, AD or BC.

I cannot prove you wrong. You cannot prove me wrong. I am not "hanging on" to anything. I am challenging an assumption and explaining why. Your "hanging on" comment is as applicable to you as it is to me, perhaps even more so because you are making an assertion and I am asking a question.

It doesn't matter. I cannot say what I have to say any more clearly. I hope no one responds to me because it will tempt me to answer and because I cannot say anything more clearly than I already have I hope I can force myself not to write anything more.

Hilversum wrote:

He didn't however say how they should be done, so I started to do as many as I could which was 10 with my weaker left and 15 with my right (and had a slight hobble the following day), which was eventually extended to 4x30 w/left and 3x40 w/right. At that point I thought it was probably pointlesss to pursue further.

Full range and slow, deliberately slow on the downward movement. (But never any extra weights.)

PS it helps if one has a certain monomaniac streak...

Thank you. I can't run with a bad cold right now. You have just given me a very worthwhile target for my energies!

For the rest of the body, I highly recommend single leg squats.

part 1

Renato Canova wrote:When I read the last posts, I understood Gipsy and HRE are not honest people.

You are a funny man. I accuse you of dishonesty and your reply is to accuse me of dishonesty. What for tactic is this? A children's tactic. “ You are! No, you are! No, you are!!!” etc ... Lets raise the standard a little ok? You then proceed to point out two reasons why i am dishonest. 1. Italy isn't a heavily corrupt country and 2. that you don't repeatedly burn athletes out. So lets take a look my first piece of 'dishonesty' in this post.

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Italia. You know i really do love it there, both in the North and the South, however, it is totally clear to anyone who has been there that corruption that exists at almost every level of everything. Everybody in Italy that is able to, is taking their slice of the pie. Your country is virtually bankrupt for this reason.

An anecdote - In 2009 I go to pick up an athletes pole vault poles i had paid British Airways 60 pounds to transport from London to Rome. On arrival, I go to the BA freight terminal and ask the BA manager for the poles. I have to pay him 25 euro. Why? Apparently he is not BA and is merely an agent. I argue that i have paid BA and that BA pay him. In reply he produces pages for me to read about fine print details of why this particular case is different and therefore why there is an extra fee. I can't spend the time dealing with this so i just pay the 25 and move on. If i don't he will just keep my poles and i will have to be on the phone for a long time which will cost more than 25 euro, just to sort it out. I then proceed to the freight counter which is downstairs in the same building. The lady there asks for 10 euro. What!!! Oh we are a different company to the one upstairs. Now i am seeing the joke. Everyone gets their cut. I pull out 5 euro and with a smile say this is all i have got. She says ok ..... and says ok and takes the 5 euro. A giant joke this is.

Or how about Primo Nebiolo - head of IAAF and owner of Mondo who makes those tracks. Nebiolo has been variously described as an arch politician. We have the interesting book Lords of the Rings don't we. So Nebiolo owns mondo and suddenly mondo is a required surface for world championships and mondo tracks start popping up all over the athletic world. This is corruption at the highest level, and you are involved with this level, so how did you manage to remain untainted? Remember small time corruption is part of your countries culture; you grow up with it and it is an inclusive part of your economy.

Then there is the story of your long jumper in Rome WC 1987. Let me quote from wiki "Italian Giovanni Evangelisti originally won the bronze with a jump of 8.37 m, but it was later determined that Italian field officials had entered a fake result for a jump of 7.85m"

NB He was subsequently busted for doping.

Then there is the case of Pedroso the long jumper in Sestrierre. Officials walking in front of the wind guage during Pedroso's WR jump! One of those officials got a life ban, a former athlere. As if he wasn't under instruction from higher up. There had to be a scapegoat - this had gone international.

Then we get to Sandro Donati, former head sprint coach for Italy, and everything he has to say about this massive corruption that is going on, in your country and in our sport.

I will be mailing this guy. He may be appreciative of another like-minded individual who sees things as he sees them. I guess you have to have been exposed to this corruption to know about it. I have and i am totally and utterly against it. And i am going to be against it my whole life.