Soup to Nuts - Letsrun Train Me

PhysMech - As our resident expert on running mechanics in this thread I'll ask your thoughts. My upper body (ie shoulders esp.) tend to twist with each stride, rather than stay fixed. I think "fixing" my upper body mechanics is a major key to getting the power and efficiency necessary for a 5k PR.

Any thoughts on the best core/strength etc. ways to help with this issue?

What a great day for both our countries!

Very sorry for Morgan Uceny (and you're right, she runs beautifully) but incredible runs by Jenny Simpson and Hannah England. England was completely unexpected.

VF, even if your core is very weak, your shoulders really need to rotate (twist) during your stride, not stay fixed. The shoulder rotation allows the hips to swivel, adding power and length to the stride. How much is the optimal amount to rotate the shoulders during the stride? Well, it depends on a lot of factors. For certain, you need to be able to maintain the mechanics easily and nothing from the waist up should feel particularly forced during the first 90 percent of a race.

One thing almost all distance runners (except Uceny, who seems to have this down) can tighten up in their mechanics is their arm motion as it relates to their upper body. I like to think of my arms as an extension of my shoulders, and I try to closely match my shoulder rotation to the arm action. This means reducing arm motion that does not directly contribute to the rotation of the shoulders. Tightening the shoulder/arm relationship allows you to be somewhat in control of your stride frequency and length.

Try this. Standing still in a running posture (elbows bent 90 degrees), push your arms down as far as they will go. The opposite of a shrug. Relax, but this is where your arms should be in the shoulder socket while running. Now, start running and allow your shoulders to rotate but keep your arms locked in their place in the shoulder socket. The arms are rotating around the spine with the shoulders, but there is no motion within the shoulder socket. Of course, this is too tight and restrictive to be optimal, but you should also notice a stride frequency increase. Relax and add arm motion from this baseline until you feel the optimum motion for you.

Distance runners have a tendency to overdo their arm motion, which leads to shoulder slack, overstriding, and poor turnover.

Or maybe we just get tired. Go figure.

PhysMech wrote:

Distance runners have a tendency to overdo their arm motion, which leads to shoulder slack, overstriding, and poor turnover.

Or maybe we just get tired. Go figure.

I'm with you on the 'low shoulders'; it's one of a few technical points I try to review on the last few laps of a race, when I try to stop thinking about how far I am behind the leaders or how much it hurts ;-)

Interestingly Percy Cerutty argued that some up-and-down shoulder motion was essential to expand lung capacity and get extra oxygen in. He reckoned you should move them in time with breaths (which are often every couple of strides), producing a slightly weird rolling gait in which some strides were a couple of inches longer than the other. Of course 99% of the world thinks old Perc was a bit nuts, but it might be fun to try out on a run!

Euro, I'm in agreement with the point about the lung capacity and allowing the shoulders to float up a bit while at maximum lung expansion does seem to help with this.

The more important aspect of what I was trying to get at with the shoulder/arm motion happens during the directional transitions. I often see the shoulder start in the opposite direction before the arm does, resulting in the shoulders sort of slinging the arms back and forth. Some runners do the opposite, with the arms slightly leading the shoulders. This may not seem so bad and an athlete can become efficient and strong in the right places to make this work, but the sluggish changes in direction in the arms will effect the legs as well. This makes in more difficult to move the legs in a quick manner. Slack in the transition also requires the arms to move back and forth more to provide the necessary balance.

Capturing the arm motion energy and transfering it to the shoulders requires using some muscles around the shoulder socket. So the shoulder muscles might get a bit tired at first.

Every time you stop at a stop light, grab the steering wheel at 5:30 and 6:30 and use the shoulder muscles to push forward and backward.

Matt Centrowitz provides a great example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_SkBU09maA

Leo Manzano (the King of turnover) is also a perfect one to watch.

Bleh, try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_SkBU09maA

PhysMech wrote:

Slack in the transition also requires the arms to move back and forth more to provide the necessary balance.

Great vid.

Centro looks and runs exactly like Jerry Barton, a 3:45 guy who ran for Cambridge when I was young and left me and everyone else for dead on the last lap of the 1500 every year at the universities match. Spooky!

I'm not sure I can tell what's leading what, but it was always drummed into me that if you want to change pace (or even keep going when your legs are dying in the last 200), you keep the shoulders tight and low in their sockets, and drive the arms at the tempo you want - kind of speeding up the metronome with your arms, and your legs will have to follow. Two points in the style checklist are "low shoulders" and "rear elbow drive". Clearly Alberto was doing nothing with his arms in that whole race.

Interestingly I have been learning a lot about lifting this summer and one recurring point is that your arms have a lot more power when you keep the shoulder low - the lats and pecs can do more work then.

I haven't tried abusing my steering wheel but I quite like swinging a pair of light dumbells hard in a running action for 30sec; surprisingly hard work and a good one to include in a circuit. Kettlebell exercises (swings and getups) are in vogue now and probably good for the same muscles.

Hey guys. After watching the WC marathon coverage I decided I wasn't going to stress as much over what my arms were doing. It's pretty obvious that you can run well with different arm motions. This thought below though I am going to try to remember.

eurodonkey wrote:

I'm not sure I can tell what's leading what, but it was always drummed into me that if you want to change pace (or even keep going when your legs are dying in the last 200), you keep the shoulders tight and low in their sockets, and drive the arms at the tempo you want - kind of speeding up the metronome with your arms, and your legs will have to follow.

Funny you should mention this. Going back to HS, our coach included up to 2 minutes of weighted arm swings w/ 2-4 lbs. I've been getting back to it occasionally recently myself.

eurodonkey wrote:

I haven't tried abusing my steering wheel but I quite like swinging a pair of light dumbells hard in a running action for 30sec; surprisingly hard work and a good one to include in a circuit.

Thanks for starting the conversation about arm/upper body motion, VF. Once again, it seems thinking about things on this thread has allowed me to find something that has helped my motion and efficiency. I want to test it while I'm really tired in a race this weekend and I have a couple of fellow local runners trying it as well.

I'm hoping to make my soulders nearly as tired as my legs at the end of the race...

PhysMech wrote:

I'm hoping to make my soulders nearly as tired as my legs at the end of the race...

Well, I had my last track session of the summer season yesterday: 6 x 150m all out. Biceps are nearly as sore as hamstrings right now!

Euro, good to hear things are going well. If you are doing 6x150, life must be doing ok.

Yes, I was able to make my shoulders quite tired during the last race. I made what seemed to be a small and inconsequential mechanical change to optimize the load on the shoulders. It turned out to be a small change with a myriad of rather important implications.

And in reference to "energy capture" of the arms, take a look at this video. It's from last year, so you sort of see the "Morgan emulating Anna" leg motion, not the "Morgan doing Morgan" that you see this year. But her arm energy is really captured in the video, from 6:58 to 7:04.

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/235660-workout-wednesday-season-4/video/350840-euro-wow-with-anna-pierce-morgan-uceny

11:20 - 12:05 Terrence Mahon, my hero!

PhysMech wrote:

Euro, good to hear things are going well. If you are doing 6x150, life must be doing ok.

Well, it seemed to work. Nothing went twang, sore for 2 days then woke up great on day 3, and ended the season yesterday with an 800 in 2:07, followed by a 57.1 400m 30 minutes later! Next summer I'll do 150s for the last 6 weeks, not just 1!

I'm really, really happy with that 400. Came out of nowhere. I think most of it is down to the strength and conditioning work this winter as it certainly isn't down to regular speedwork. I must talk to that 55 year old who outkicked me in the last 50.

Now for two weeks off running, then a whole new year of experiments...

How's everyone doing? Hows that achilles going ID? Haven't heard anything from you in a while.

No idea where ID is - I hope he's taking a decent vacation somewhere!

I'm still here and training and very happy to kick off some more discussion - this thread helped a lot in motivating me last winter.

Does anyone else want to share their evaluations, goals and plans here? This is the time of year when, as a track-centric European, I tend to make training plans for the year.

I've got some very interesting info to share on strength training for runners as well. But it could as easily be a separate thread if the feeling is that this should mostly be Impossible Dream's story.

I'm in a bit of a different spot in my athletic year. Down in Australia we're just gearing up for track season (first meet was today actually!).

I've found this thread has been full of useful information and while this is only my second post, I've been following from the beginning.

I'd very much like to hear and discuss any information regarding strength training for runners. I've recently stopped all lower body lifting because it seems to be the only thing changed recently that could explain my latest string of niggles causing me to lose the odd week of training here and there. My theory was that my legs weren't recovering enough following strength sessions, so when I'd do my workouts, my fatigued hamstrings/quads/calves were able to absorb less of the loading, forcing other supporting tendons and muscles to overcompensate and end up strained.

I do hope at some point ID comes back to his thread to update us. I'd finally stopped checking, but happened to see this again this morning. Here's my brief synopsis. Life has been stressful and hectic. Health has been a complication (allergies/sinus infection - nothing running specific.) Running has been so-so, but still going.

Euro - If you don't think it's right to post other stuff here, make sure I know where it is so I can follow it.

I need a goal. I need motivation. I need to (in the words of Nike) "Just Do it!" This thread was a help in the past - seeing how ID has (at least temporarily) abdicated power, my vote would be we go ahead and keep the thread going ourselves.

This thread really is a testament to how long a year actually is, and how much can change durin that time, and how much can be accomplished during that time.

The first post on this thread was Nov 7, 2010 (or Nov 9, can't remember which). It has actually been less than a year since that first post, but during that time:

ID started at 190 lbs, had run a 5k around 20:20 in the spring but had been plagued with leg injuries and hadn't raced since.

By April he had dropped to 165 lbs, was running 70-80mpw with tons of core & strength supplementary work. He knocked out a great 1:18:06 half marathon (at age 40 or 41).

By May/June, he was stuggling with achilles injury(ies).

June/July, work got busy, and still struggling with injuries.

Now, mid Oct and it's been like 6 weeks(?) since we've heard anything from him. Like everyone else, I hope things are going well for him and that he's enjoying a nice long vacation or something. But odds are, that the running isn't going great at the moment. If things were going great, I'd guess there would be at least something posted.

All this, and 1 full year hasn't even expired yet!

I look forward to seeing ID's progress in year 2. I'm sure if he can actually embrace some patience in his training that great things are in store for him.

I also am taking to heart that a LOT can be accomplished in a year's time with focused effort. And that it's ok to exercise some patience because a year really is a lot of time to make things happen. Just look at the up & down cycle we've witnessed here.

Hey Euro!

Looks like someone else thinks a masters strength thread is a good idea. I figured you would see it here at some point since you hadn't responded on the thread someone started. Here's the title:

Captainrobbo/Eurodonkey: strength for masters

In the meantime, did anyone have an e-mail for ID? Right now I'm just hoping he's doing OK even if he isn't any closer to his goal right now.