Lydiard Imitations

snowden wrote:

Antonio,

I have no doubt you are very knowledgable and intelligent. But for god's sake do you really have to act like a 15 years old? Why do you want to act like such an a$$hole? What gives?

Why even worry about? Now Antonio himself said it, in public, not like secret private conversation he himself despises, that he is in fact Lydiardist. So what's all this fuss about? Does he have a split personality? Maybe he does....

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Didn´t no one told you yet that i´m a Lydiardist ?

I'm in Kenya again after Charlotte, and when I opened my computer connected with internet I went to see some good things and many stupidities that every day there are in the forum.

When I read from little one, I have the doubt to answer or not, because answering to very stupid thread it means to give importance to stupid people.

However, I want only to say something more precise for all the persons that, not knowing anything about myself, are so clever not to invent something wrong.

1) I'm not one knowing everything about EPO. However, I know what I need to know, because I knew about EPO already BEFORE the use of this drug. Infact, EPO is a natural product of our body, and, if you study physiology, you NEED to know WHAT EPO IS and why our body can produce.

This is exactly the reason BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE EFFECT OF SYNTHETIC EPO WITH TOP AFRICAN RUNNERS.

Because, I repeat, ALL MY ATHLETES NEVER USED ANY SUPPLEMENT, ALSO LEGAL (with big difference from CLEAN athletes using a lot of legal supplements), and I had, for example, the following athletes under 27' in 10000m :

Nicholas Kemboi 26'30", Ahmed Hassan 26'38", Imane Merga 26'48", Moses Mosop 26'49", John Korir 26'52", Mark Bett 26'52" and Geoffrey Kirui 26'55" ; and there are articles speaking about an advantage between 40" and 1'10" in 10000m ; DO YOU THINK I CAN THINK ALL MY ATHLETES, TAKING EPO, COULD RUN UNDER 26' ?

So, when somebody can think I'm stupid or I want to hide something not correct (but I'm sure of my athletes under this point of view), my answer is :

"May be I don't have any proof EPO doesn't work, but I've the proof without EPO you can beat the WR. Instead, you don't have this second proof, and that's the reason because for you onlyt the first chance remains".

2) I tell everybody "dont worry if other athletes use EPO or not, because at top levcel doesn't work". I don't say "dont worry if WE use EPO", because WE DONT USE. And this because, if youy look at the others instead having the focus of improving your performances, you go to create limits (the most part of times very stupid) for your improvement.

3) I never was ASSISTANT of the middle distance runners of 25/30 years ago. At that time I was the National Responsible of Decathlon, and always I had to fight with the Italian DT asking me "when do you start to give something to the decathlonists" ?

And I explained that SOMEBODY used and won (Cova, Dorio), others DIDN'T USE, and won (Panetta, Mei, Bordin).

And I explained, too, that somebody using till 1985 (when, I remind everybody, IT WAS NOT DOPING, BUT VERY HIGH SCIENTIFIC SUPPORT in all the researches of that era) and after quitting completely, IMPROVED A LOT (Antibo).

4) Only people not knowing anything about Africa can think the best runners take EPO. The fact so many are able running 2:05 in the marathon (this is an answer for HRE) is exactly the reason because it's not possibler to think there is doping in Kenya, because IF THE AVERAGE IS NOW TWO MINUTES FASTER THAN 3 YEARS AGO AND THE REASON IS DOPING, WE NEED TO SUPPOSE THERE IS A CENTRAL ORGANISATION (as in East Germany 30 years ago) from the Federation. And, for everybody knowing AK, it's very easy to understand this is not possible.

5) But I want to be more aggressive now. Together with the general wide improvement of African marathon runners, we have a general decrease of the Western runners (European, American, Australian and New Zealander).

Because sometimes some athlete of these Countries is caught for doping, MAY BE MANY ATHLETES USING DOPING TODAY RUN SLOWER THAN 10/20 YEARS AGO BECAUSE OF THIS.

May be doping is NEGATIVE for the top performances, or NOT ?

HRE wrote:

I asked Nobby years ago if he thought PEDs contributed to Japan's fast marathon times. I don't recall his exact answer but it was along the lines of,no, the dishonor being caught would bring would so great that no one would ever risk doing it.

Japanese and New Zealanders are much more ethical than Africans and Italians.

HRE wrote:

It's really obnoxious when someone makes up things that another person never said and then criticizes the person for saying the things that have been attributed to them. That's what you've just done so I won't reply to any of your comments until you manage to respond to something I wrote rather than to something you've decided I've written.

I simply pressed the quote button, that quoted your post.

So how could it not be what you said?

In any case, how obnoxious of me to quote and respond to your post.

Man I wish there weren't so many knuckleheads saying stupid things that Renato has to correct them on a million times over. It seems like half the time Renato takes time to post on Letsrun, it's in response to absurdly stupid comments about how either a) all his athletes are supposedly on drugs or b) he claims success for other peoples' athletes.

I wish Renato would spend more time talking about his training theories and less time giving the trolls and cynics attention!

gypsy wrote:

6. The training approach Renato uses is the one we used to shake our heads out. It is unsustainable training. 3 years and the athlete is dead in the water. Just take a look at US college system. Same same.

Are his athletes burnt out? Or have they simply reaped enough rewards, then moved on (genuine question)?

Maybe Canova gets great performances out of his athletes quickly because 1) the method works more efficiently than others, or 2) they are starting at such a high level.

You (or rather the lets run forum quote function) quoted HRE correctly, but interpreted him incorrectly.

Thanks to all those who posted on topic. Aloha.

And with this post gypsy not only loses the battle, but also the war. (And this is a guy who TWICE crossed the line famously when attempting to discipline athletes under his charge.)

J.R. wrote:

I simply pressed the quote button, that quoted your post.

So how could it not be what you said?

In any case, how obnoxious of me to quote and respond to your post.

Because I have never claimed to know something Renato doesn't know as you claim. I have expressed an opinion about how fast it's possible to run a marathon without some pharmaceutical help but have been very clear it's my opinion and may well be incorrect.

Renato,

I don't know much about Africa but why would we need to assume there is some central agency that dopes athletes if in fact that happens? Why would it not be something that individual agents, athletes,or coaches do independently or convince their athletes to do?

In the US, baseball has similar issues with drugs, though not always the same ones that turn up in athletics. There is no agency that controls this. A friend of mine was told that he had a potential major league career but was too small and that he "knew what he needed to do" if he wanted to have that professional career. There is no agency but rather a wide belief by many coaches, agents and scouts that something "extra" is needed. Why would athletics be any different?

[quote]Lydiard Imitation wrote:And with this post gypsy not only loses the battle, but also the war. (And this is a guy who TWICE crossed the line famously when attempting to discipline athletes under his charge.)

How can i lose, i'm on the right side. I'm against the cheaters and liars, the false prophets and the coaches with BS methodology.

so who are you and why are you calling me famous?

another perspective wrote:Are his athletes burnt out? Or have they simply reaped enough rewards, then moved on (genuine question)?

Maybe Canova gets great performances out of his athletes quickly because 1) the method works more efficiently than others, or 2) they are starting at such a high level.

A coach who repetitively burns his athletes out is doing something wrong yes?

Sure there will be many reasons and all might appear in one case or another over time.

Yet when a program is unsustainable, even unsustainable in a population group such as the Kenyans, and this program fails to take athletes past the three year mark.

THEN THIS IS A GIANT RED FLAG.

Your suspicious mind about the Africans and Kenyans doesn’t include your beloved Samuel Wanjiru ?

Your suspicious mind didn´t suspect about NZ Willis or the runners from the Salazar/Oregon team ?

Might the good results from Wnajiru be in Japan and that you sy he did Lydiard training is the result from take drugs gave by agents, or you just don´t suspect at all any african runner that trains by the Lydiard method ?

Another question. When you mean the good results that Wanjiru did, and apart from the Olympics you don´t use the same logic argument that pacers did help him to run as fast as he did ? Or it´s just fast performances because of the LYdiard training, and the others they are helped by pacers ?

The agents of the African runners aren´t not physical present in African soil most of the time. Kenya and Ethiopia are large countries and the runners don´t train or cities but on the country. Only with an organized and systematic drug use that needs a big apparatus could be possible to cover such large universe of runners with drugs. I don´t know of a basic sophisticated lab on Kenya or Ethiopia whatsoever.

Of course I'm not Renato, but I think he would point out that most east Africans have a very different attitude towards pharmacy and drugs in general than what is wide spread in the U. S. and Europe, where e lot of amateurs take a lot of (legal) medicine and supplements.

Of course there were and are dopers without the aid of a central agency, but in the western world, most busted dopers belonged to networks, which are far more easily to set up and to maintain in these developed countries than in Kenya or in Ethiopia.

That is no hard evidence that every Kenyan is clan. But there never will be any perfect evidence that any runner is clean, if he is American, German, Kenyan or from what nation ever. In the end,only the athlete himself and may be very few that are very close know for sure.

In many cases, athletics was and is not different. But the circumstances do not allow the conclusion, that any of Renatos Runners is more likely doped than others. For now, I have no reason not to believe his word that his athletes are clean.

And I think Renato has an important point, if we analyse the psychological situation of the athletes.

A clean Athlete thinking he cannot beat the dopers because they have a big advantage because of doping will more likely lose. The same effect will hinder him, if a western athlete thinks he has a big genetic disadvantage. And i'm quite sure, that most of the best western athletes did not think so, and that was one of the reason why they trained hard and ran those times, that a lot of the western athletes of today only dream about.

So you can only succeed if you trust and believe in what you do.

And as i think his athletes are clean i think, from the motivational view, Renato is right to tell his athletes they can beat even the drug-users. Even if Renato was wrong and EPO could benefit the best runners from the east-african highlands, it would be better for his clean athletes to believe him, because otherwise they would have to fear the doped runners.

On the other side, the doped athlete HAS to believe, that HE has the advantage over the clean athletes and he can at least be even with the doped ones. And that psychological effect will in some cases be of more help than the physical effects of the drugs.

Greetings

C

Antonio Cabral wrote:The agents of the African runners aren´t not physical present in African soil most of the time. Kenya and Ethiopia are large countries and the runners don´t train or cities but on the country. Only with an organized and systematic drug use that needs a big apparatus could be possible to cover such large universe of runners with drugs. I don´t know of a basic sophisticated lab on Kenya or Ethiopia whatsoever.

tell us about the athletes you've coached Antonio. Tell us about the 209 marathoner you coached.

Renato Canova wrote:

a whole ton of BS

You are so full of shit in so many ways. By the way i am still waiting for you to explain how you coached an 8k decathlete.

go on expose yourself renato

The real "gypsy" was quite possibly in a foul mood for the real life reason he mentioned (or the excuse he gave himself?), but this "gypsy" must be a rather silly troll.

I'll laugh all the way to the hospital. (Bladder cancer is pretty funny, too.)

its me same same

i've just decided to call tings as i see them

I am sorry if my posts lead to accusations.I did never say Renatos athletes were doped.Or that kenyans in general are.I even said that due to their biomechanic and genetic advantages, it could be very much possible that clean kenyans can beat the best doped americans or europeans.My point was that one should be sceptical about modern training. And not just blindly conclude its better due to the achievements of athletes following "modern training".I agree very much with the post by HRE cited below.What i do not like is Renatos incorrect statement that top kenyans dont benefit from blood doping. The mechanisms he propose responsible are completely wrong and would suggest the contrary, that the kenyans were ideal candidates for doping, and Renato know it.One dont fight doping with lies, it will just make things more tempting when they eventually find the truth.