Then he wasn't very well informed, was he? Nothing shows he gets better the longer the distance.
He was not very well trained for the distance.
Or he lacks the talent for it, which is more likely. You only assume he wasn't well-trained. Why would a top professional athlete like Ingebrigtsen enter an event he isn't prepared for? Is he dumber than the routine Letsrun poster, who think they know better than he what he should have done?
You are still wrong about Lydiard. His formula was essentially the same for all his athletes and minor variations in individual programmes doesn't change that. The rest of your comment has become an empty mantra that you have said in every post.
Or you are. I guess you could say "essentially the same" when you ignore all the athlete and event specific training. During "track training" and "coordination" phases, Lydiard's "essentially the same" formula prescribes middle distance training for middle distance runners and long distance training for long distance runners. But "event specific" training was only part of what we knew from the Lydiard days -- the other part was timing your training to peak for the important races.
Still wrong about Lydiard. The essential part of his formula for ALL his athletes was a conditioning base, hill work and speed training on the track. That applies to 800 runners like Snell through to marathon runners. You wouldn't know this because you've never been a competitive runner, only a keyboard jockey.
I, neither, think Jakob was in his best 10000m shape -his thinking of running the distance in champs un prepared might be based on the very real assumption of these races often being somewhat slow, and maybe that he could win them on his closing speed and even him being a hot weather freak… And yes, 10 is a higher number than 1.5, 3 and 5. But 5, f.x, is the closest number to 10, in the running events. -There’s some striking likeness between 5 and 10, especially for a guy who claims he is better the longer the distance..
Yes, we must give Jakob some slack, even in a so relatively (to our discussion) short event as the 10k, because of the track season (priorities). But not a whole minute or more..! (Take a look on Aregawi and Kejelcha etc who can impress both in the 3k and 10k in the same track season, and even the HM quite closely)…
Your example about Cheptegei fits my narrative much better than yours, I think. -He lead the WC xc to Kamworor with a huge margin, an only blew up (huge) in the last hundreds of meters. If Jakob had done something similar (that I think he feared; he’s not stupid) everything would have been fine… But I agree that all doesn’t have to be said and done when it comes to Jakob and 10k/HM -who knows; maybe he can keep his double threshold, and only do some longer long runs, and some long tempo runs ++, and down prioritise the 1500m, and everything would be fine. But he would then have to change his former saying -the very un nuanced and cocky and deceptive words about fast 10k/HM without any words at all about the need of changing his training / focus… For now he is a guy who significantly (and absurdly, and very unusually, compared to his competitors in the 5000m) gets worse the longer the distance, and not the opposite…
Jakob’s performance in Copenhagen was really really bad. Let me compare him to two other guys; first myself: I pretty much only ran 1.5 years in my teens because of injuries and very poor insight in training principles. But I ran an off event I was extremely poorly prepared for, because of injuries and because of lack of talent for the distance. And I front ran the whole damn thing. But I ran under the women’s WR, and my time is still better than the current WR. But I considered my self a hobby jogger in the event. So what does that make Jakob -he’s behind the women’s WR (yes not only behind one woman), despite excellent pacing in what he calls his best event. This is cognitive dissonance, because he clearly currently is a hobby jogger in the event. -His self declared, former grossly over weight, hobby jogger 36 years old brother, Kristoffer, might come closer to Jakob in the HM, than Jakob to the HM WR..!
Second example: In the 10k Jakob has all the features of a borderline B athlete. -Narve Gilje Nordås, which main focus is the 1500m (twice ran sub 3.30, WC bronze) just ran 27.31 in the 10k, in a totally un prepared race, with poorer packing than Jakob, coming from 190 km weeks altitude training after a near season pause where he was amazed of how bad shape he fell into. My point: If we give Jakob a 12.40 capacity in the 5000m he would be 25 sec better than Nordås’ 5000pb, but his 27.27 would only be 4 sec better than his countryman’s 10k run, whereas it should be at least 50 sec if Jakob is better the longer the distance. (Ok -I twist things a little, because Nordås might have sub 13 capacity in the 5000m, but still). -The signs of Jakob being a poor currently 10k runner can’t be overlooked, and provokingly it is tempting to prolong it even to the 5000m event (not the clown races, that has very little to do with running, but the fast ones, that Jakob hasn’t done).
I should of course have skipped the last two sentences, because unlike Armstronglivs I don’t necessarily thrive with the multiple downvotes, but what the heck (why not claim the truth now and then without any agenda what so ever) -fun to try other posters boots once in a while…
Yes 10 is closest to 5 -- and he set a 10K national record -- becoming the fastest ever Norwegian of all time. What a really really bad performance. What a clown.
The point about Cheptegei is that he went on to win and set World Records. No one judged his capability based on his 2017 World Cross Country performance. That would make no sense.
It wasn't a 10k event. No one outside Norway could care less what he ran. The truth is that he is neither world class over the 10k or the HM. He showed he was completely out of his element.
Aside from saying at length how you feel about me (which doesn't bother me in the slightest) you have nothing to say of any factual interest on the subject being discussed. But that's you. Like many here, you take yourself too seriously and cannot cope with opinions you don't like.
I haven't said how I feel about you. Just described some of your behaviours: lying (often, a fact). never agreeing when exposed to be wrong (a fact), changing the subject when appropriate ( hundreds of times), terrible handling of others (all are stupid and so on), acting like a child when repeting the same stuff dozens of times, missing completely any logic in the argumentation (A faster B because of a single PB, despite constantly losing, C faster B because of a single win despite of weaker PBs - important: B is the hated athlete).
I could continue for a long time.
For sure you don't care to be criticised Nothing can change your behaviour just by an inch.
I'm interested in the thread subject and I have written to it.
No you haven't. The only subject that interests you here is me. You can't stop posting about me. No one else is interested.
I haven't said how I feel about you. Just described some of your behaviours: lying (often, a fact). never agreeing when exposed to be wrong (a fact), changing the subject when appropriate ( hundreds of times), terrible handling of others (all are stupid and so on), acting like a child when repeting the same stuff dozens of times, missing completely any logic in the argumentation (A faster B because of a single PB, despite constantly losing, C faster B because of a single win despite of weaker PBs - important: B is the hated athlete).
I could continue for a long time.
For sure you don't care to be criticised Nothing can change your behaviour just by an inch.
I'm interested in the thread subject and I have written to it.
No you haven't. The only subject that interests you here is me. You can't stop posting about me. No one else is interested.
There are NRs and European records that are really weak, and there are some that are really strong. Henrik Ingebrigtsen beat some years ago the really weak 3.37 with 6 sec, and Jakob the really weak 7.40 with 23 sec. But in the 800m, f.x, the long time NR is strong, as is also the European record.
Jakob did beat the NR, in a really weak time -23 sec slower than a really weak European record -set by a 13.15 man. (Has to be compared to the WR + 10000m times). Yes, even the 10k WR is weak -Kipruto has run significantly faster, but is out because of ABP, EPO. But you don’t believe in the effect of that kind of doping, so the time shouldn’t in your reconning be considered inflated, maybe..?
Cheptegei is a good example of a come back kid. And even better now when he possible makes a difference in the HM/marathon with much better training. But comparing his 2017 race, where he way in front nearly crushed a field (consisting of guys like Kamworor) with Jakob being dragged to utterly collapse before the half mark, is a little ridiculous in my view…
I don’t see Jakob as an all over clown, or in a condescending way. On the contrary. I have of course a fundamentally respect for him. Also, and even especially, when he struggles and is heroic.
Given the circumstances, there are several reasons to think if he trained for it, with the right pacing, he could easily improve at least another 30-45 seconds.
I'm not comparing Cheptegei's race to Ingebrigtsen's. I'm pointing out how senseless it is to read too much into a race that cannot indicate his real potential.
Still wrong about Lydiard. The essential part of his formula for ALL his athletes was a conditioning base, hill work and speed training on the track. That applies to 800 runners like Snell through to marathon runners. You wouldn't know this because you've never been a competitive runner, only a keyboard jockey.
Maybe that explains why you are so ignorant about training, but that doesn't apply to me.
While Lydiard's base building and hill phases were essentially the same for everyone, the track training and sharpening phases are tailored to the athletes and their targeted events. Just to be sure I wasn't wrong, I pulled out my copy of "Run to the Top", and jumped to the "track training" section, and found many event specific schedules. The sharpening phases include target race simulating time trials (approximating both speed and distance) as a key feature by intent and design, to identify any training weaknesses, allowing adjusting training accordingly.
Yes 10 is closest to 5 -- and he set a 10K national record -- becoming the fastest ever Norwegian of all time. What a really really bad performance. What a clown.
The point about Cheptegei is that he went on to win and set World Records. No one judged his capability based on his 2017 World Cross Country performance. That would make no sense.
It wasn't a 10k event. No one outside Norway could care less what he ran. The truth is that he is neither world class over the 10k or the HM. He showed he was completely out of his element.
Apparently a few people here care. Jakob ran 10K faster than any Norwegian before him -- even those in a 10K event.
I haven't said how I feel about you. Just described some of your behaviours: lying (often, a fact). never agreeing when exposed to be wrong (a fact), changing the subject when appropriate ( hundreds of times), terrible handling of others (all are stupid and so on), acting like a child when repeting the same stuff dozens of times, missing completely any logic in the argumentation (A faster B because of a single PB, despite constantly losing, C faster B because of a single win despite of weaker PBs - important: B is the hated athlete).
I could continue for a long time.
For sure you don't care to be criticised Nothing can change your behaviour just by an inch.
I'm interested in the thread subject and I have written to it.
No you haven't. The only subject that interests you here is me. You can't stop posting about me. No one else is interested.
We posted here before you found Letsrun. I have been posting since 2001. Why don't you try it. Don't post for a few days and see how the forum goes on without you.
Given the circumstances, there are several reasons to think if he trained for it, with the right pacing, he could easily improve at least another 30-45 seconds.
I'm not comparing Cheptegei's race to Ingebrigtsen's. I'm pointing out how senseless it is to read too much into a race that cannot indicate his real potential.
1. But he did train for it (minus maybe a slightly outthinning in the track season.)
2. Yes, one shouldn’t read too much into a single race. But Jakob has had several (bad long races) through the years, and no fast ones.
3. I too think he can improve significantly. But that seems to imply a change in the training I hope he eventually does. And a little less cocky attitude to the distance events, if I may say so…
But he is still my favourite athlete with a huge margin, and probably always will be, despite that I also have some hopes for the very unpredictable Nordås. I really believe Jakob has given unforgettable joy to a lot of track fans, and that there’s more to come…
Given the circumstances, there are several reasons to think if he trained for it, with the right pacing, he could easily improve at least another 30-45 seconds.
I'm not comparing Cheptegei's race to Ingebrigtsen's. I'm pointing out how senseless it is to read too much into a race that cannot indicate his real potential.
1. But he did train for it (minus maybe a slightly outthinning in the track season.)
2. Yes, one shouldn’t read too much into a single race. But Jakob has had several (bad long races) through the years, and no fast ones.
3. I too think he can improve significantly. But that seems to imply a change in the training I hope he eventually does. And a little less cocky attitude to the distance events, if I may say so…
But he is still my favourite athlete with a huge margin, and probably always will be, despite that I also have some hopes for the very unpredictable Nordås. I really believe Jakob has given unforgettable joy to a lot of track fans, and that there’s more to come…
He already trains for maximizing strength so I don’t see what the change in training would be. Would he be trading speed for strength and be no longer be capable of running sub-3:30?
Given the circumstances, there are several reasons to think if he trained for it, with the right pacing, he could easily improve at least another 30-45 seconds.
I'm not comparing Cheptegei's race to Ingebrigtsen's. I'm pointing out how senseless it is to read too much into a race that cannot indicate his real potential.
1. But he did train for it (minus maybe a slightly outthinning in the track season.)
Come on. Obviously a guy training for 1500/5000 has not been training for the HM.
1. But he did train for it (minus maybe a slightly outthinning in the track season.)
2. Yes, one shouldn’t read too much into a single race. But Jakob has had several (bad long races) through the years, and no fast ones.
3. I too think he can improve significantly. But that seems to imply a change in the training I hope he eventually does. And a little less cocky attitude to the distance events, if I may say so…
But he is still my favourite athlete with a huge margin, and probably always will be, despite that I also have some hopes for the very unpredictable Nordås. I really believe Jakob has given unforgettable joy to a lot of track fans, and that there’s more to come…
He already trains for maximizing strength so I don’t see what the change in training would be. Would he be trading speed for strength and be no longer be capable of running sub-3:30?
That's my guess. Those Saturday hill reps and the peaking track workouts would go out the window.
1. But he did train for it (minus maybe a slightly outthinning in the track season.)
2. Yes, one shouldn’t read too much into a single race. But Jakob has had several (bad long races) through the years, and no fast ones.
3. I too think he can improve significantly. But that seems to imply a change in the training I hope he eventually does. And a little less cocky attitude to the distance events, if I may say so…
But he is still my favourite athlete with a huge margin, and probably always will be, despite that I also have some hopes for the very unpredictable Nordås. I really believe Jakob has given unforgettable joy to a lot of track fans, and that there’s more to come…
He already trains for maximizing strength so I don’t see what the change in training would be. Would he be trading speed for strength and be no longer be capable of running sub-3:30?
Do you think he - or someone else - ever was simultaneously in his best ever possible shape over 1500m and HM?
Just the idea is so ridiculous that it's astonishing how much effort Army and his friend and others put into it.
As far as I'm informed about it, his main focus so far was to maximise his 1500m PB. The result is 3:26.73, 4th fastest in history. If I had to bet, I would say this will remain his lifetime PB. As a byproduct of this (as an extremely strength based runner) he was able to run 7:17.55. Maybe close to his max, but not his ultimate.
For sure he can run faster in the longer events as he did. How fast? We don't know.
1. But he did train for it (minus maybe a slightly outthinning in the track season.)
2. Yes, one shouldn’t read too much into a single race. But Jakob has had several (bad long races) through the years, and no fast ones.
3. I too think he can improve significantly. But that seems to imply a change in the training I hope he eventually does. And a little less cocky attitude to the distance events, if I may say so…
But he is still my favourite athlete with a huge margin, and probably always will be, despite that I also have some hopes for the very unpredictable Nordås. I really believe Jakob has given unforgettable joy to a lot of track fans, and that there’s more to come…
1. Sorry. I don't agree, and neither did Jakob. This race was a last minute afterthought, as his training was focused on 1500m and 5000m in the Olympics, and 1500m in Diamond League.
2. Not just "a single race", but specifically this race in Copenhagen, at the end of an Olympic and Diamond League season. Some were expecting a win and a world record, while Jakob was excited to see if he could finish. Where is the disconnect? Don't look for meaning in a race that is essentially meaningless as a direct consequence of the circumstances. As for the other long races, like most every athlete in history, Jakob has so far focused on the shorter racing, and then later, he will move up in distance. Only then can we begin to judge if he is better at 1500m-3000m, or the half-marathon.
3. His cocky attitude is just words -- something which appeals to some fans. I don't give much weight to any of his words, either pre-race, or before. They must be interpreted in context, and then taken with a grain of salt. In time, actions will speak louder than words, but for somethings, it is not yet time.
Do you think he - or someone else - ever was simultaneously in his best ever possible shape over 1500m and HM?
Just the idea is so ridiculous that it's astonishing how much effort Army and his friend and others put into it.
As far as I'm informed about it, his main focus so far was to maximise his 1500m PB. The result is 3:26.73, 4th fastest in history. If I had to bet, I would say this will remain his lifetime PB. As a byproduct of this (as an extremely strength based runner) he was able to run 7:17.55. Maybe close to his max, but not his ultimate.
For sure he can run faster in the longer events as he did. How fast? We don't know.
I agree -hard to peak in the 1500m and the HM at the same time. And I don’t think Jakob thought he was in peak HM shape -I only think he thought he might be very good still, and that being drafted almost all of the distance would give him very good compensation. But I think he got a reality check…
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