You’re reading a lot into the race yourself. That he set a 10K NR, that he wanted to see how long he could stay with the leaders, and gain some experience, does not turn a bad race into a good one.
Maybe he can run a fast HM someday, but it sure doesn’t look like it after Copenhagen.
How can setting a national record be considered a bad race?
I'm reading even much more into it than you say. Since actions speak louder than words, I don't place much weight on any of his comments. His pre-race comments simply echo what my expectations would have been beforehand. If Jakob had said nothing (or if I knew nothing of his comments), my arguments would be the same. If a national class athlete who spent the whole season racing 1500m/3000m/5000m decided to run a half-marathon after the end of his season, what would the pre-race conversation be like between him and his coach? What goals would they want to achieve?
I think the top two race scenarios they discuss would be to 1) run conservatively within yourself at your best pace, and target 61-62 minutes, or 2) run aggressively and see how long you can stick with the leaders for the experience. If the race is targeting 58:00, that is 27:30, which would be a national 10K road race record. The first scenario would be the safest, but there is not much more to learn running in no-man's land. He would get a mediocre PB, and place 17th-20th. Given Jakob's aggressive running style and competitive nature, the second scenario seems an obvious choice. Getting a national record would still be a decent consolation prize.
For a 1500m/5000m runner who decides to aggressively stick with the leaders for as long as he can, one likely prediction is that he will not last the whole race. This is nothing to be ashamed of or a cause for humiliation, but rather a lesson to be learned in a race that has no importance in the 2024 season.
"How can setting a national record be considered a bad race?"
The race was a HM not 10k. If it wasn't a HM why did he continue after 10k? That he set a Norwegian record for 10k is as about as relevant as if it had been the Belarussian record. Who gives a cr*p about that.
After being reduced to a walk after 10k he finished in 34th place in 63 mins in an event he had previously described as his "best" distance. I'd hate to see what his worst is.
No one is saying Jakob was in his best 10000m shape either -- again he was training for much shorter distances. You do understand that numbers like 1.5 and 3 and 5 are much smaller than 10 and 21.1?
Funny you mention Cheptegei. Let's stick with Cheptegei for comparisons.
If Jakob had jumped into a race similar to Cheptegei's 2019 10K Valencia(26:38), the conversation might have been something like "stick with the leaders for as long as you can; the Norwegian 5K record is 13:24 and you might have a good shot at the leaders pacing you to a national record."
Does everyone remember Cheptegei in 2017 World Cross Country? In a ~10K race, he was leading with 600m to go. The last 600m took 4 minutes, and he slipped from first to 30th. Now that was a "bad race", a severe pace misjudgement, to hot in the heat, etc. Two years later, he came back to win the World Cross Championships, and later that year, set a road 10K record at 26:38. Three years later, he set world records in both 5000m (12:35) and 10000m (26:11).
One "bad race" (assuming a national 10K record is considered "bad" for the sake of discussion) doesn't mean anything two or three years later.
I, neither, think Jakob was in his best 10000m shape -his thinking of running the distance in champs un prepared might be based on the very real assumption of these races often being somewhat slow, and maybe that he could win them on his closing speed and even him being a hot weather freak… And yes, 10 is a higher number than 1.5, 3 and 5. But 5, f.x, is the closest number to 10, in the running events. -There’s some striking likeness between 5 and 10, especially for a guy who claims he is better the longer the distance..
Yes, we must give Jakob some slack, even in a so relatively (to our discussion) short event as the 10k, because of the track season (priorities). But not a whole minute or more..! (Take a look on Aregawi and Kejelcha etc who can impress both in the 3k and 10k in the same track season, and even the HM quite closely)…
Your example about Cheptegei fits my narrative much better than yours, I think. -He lead the WC xc to Kamworor with a huge margin, an only blew up (huge) in the last hundreds of meters. If Jakob had done something similar (that I think he feared; he’s not stupid) everything would have been fine… But I agree that all doesn’t have to be said and done when it comes to Jakob and 10k/HM -who knows; maybe he can keep his double threshold, and only do some longer long runs, and some long tempo runs ++, and down prioritise the 1500m, and everything would be fine. But he would then have to change his former saying -the very un nuanced and cocky and deceptive words about fast 10k/HM without any words at all about the need of changing his training / focus… For now he is a guy who significantly (and absurdly, and very unusually, compared to his competitors in the 5000m) gets worse the longer the distance, and not the opposite…
Jakob’s performance in Copenhagen was really really bad. Let me compare him to two other guys; first myself: I pretty much only ran 1.5 years in my teens because of injuries and very poor insight in training principles. But I ran an off event I was extremely poorly prepared for, because of injuries and because of lack of talent for the distance. And I front ran the whole damn thing. But I ran under the women’s WR, and my time is still better than the current WR. But I considered my self a hobby jogger in the event. So what does that make Jakob -he’s behind the women’s WR (yes not only behind one woman), despite excellent pacing in what he calls his best event. This is cognitive dissonance, because he clearly currently is a hobby jogger in the event. -His self declared, former grossly over weight, hobby jogger 36 years old brother, Kristoffer, might come closer to Jakob in the HM, than Jakob to the HM WR..!
Second example: In the 10k Jakob has all the features of a borderline B athlete. -Narve Gilje Nordås, which main focus is the 1500m (twice ran sub 3.30, WC bronze) just ran 27.31 in the 10k, in a totally un prepared race, with poorer packing than Jakob, coming from 190 km weeks altitude training after a near season pause where he was amazed of how bad shape he fell into. My point: If we give Jakob a 12.40 capacity in the 5000m he would be 25 sec better than Nordås’ 5000pb, but his 27.27 would only be 4 sec better than his countryman’s 10k run, whereas it should be at least 50 sec if Jakob is better the longer the distance. (Ok -I twist things a little, because Nordås might have sub 13 capacity in the 5000m, but still). -The signs of Jakob being a poor currently 10k runner can’t be overlooked, and provokingly it is tempting to prolong it even to the 5000m event (not the clown races, that has very little to do with running, but the fast ones, that Jakob hasn’t done).
I should of course have skipped the last two sentences, because unlike Armstronglivs I don’t necessarily thrive with the multiple downvotes, but what the heck (why not claim the truth now and then without any agenda what so ever) -fun to try other posters boots once in a while…
The fixation of yours and theeveenmuchmorecuriousdude on a single race and some quote is astonishing.
Waiting for more!
You are quite right here, I think. -I for my part is very fixated on Jakob because he like me is a Norwegian, and because I find his project extremely unusual and interesting.
And I really like Armstronglivs (and now also rekrunner) who blesses these threads by answering posts and in so many ways gives me reactions I need.
And for the record: I really like and respect a number of runners, f.x a lot of African women who are really tough and likeable, and also from other continents, and African and Americans and European males I don’t root for, but like.
And I’m so narcissistic that I like being seen and answered -even when posters claim that my posts are the worst ever, or when Salvitore calls my frequent posts “your catalogue of unhinged babble” (forced me to think through things a little, and even my answer to him -should I kick him in his balls, or should I modulate my answer..?). Yes even your’s is appreciated..,!
Absolutely. Who doesn't like such a good guy like Armstronglivs, who
lies all the time
always changes the subject when his nonsense is exposed that even he understands it
hundreds of times writes the same nonsense like to put it in the heads of everyone (Kejelcha didn't walked while setting a new WR - what a great information)
terribly calls all the others (exception his norwegian friend) stupid and much worse
even refuses to accept facts like race results if they don't fit his agenda
How can setting a national record be considered a bad race?
I'm reading even much more into it than you say. Since actions speak louder than words, I don't place much weight on any of his comments. His pre-race comments simply echo what my expectations would have been beforehand. If Jakob had said nothing (or if I knew nothing of his comments), my arguments would be the same. If a national class athlete who spent the whole season racing 1500m/3000m/5000m decided to run a half-marathon after the end of his season, what would the pre-race conversation be like between him and his coach? What goals would they want to achieve?
I think the top two race scenarios they discuss would be to 1) run conservatively within yourself at your best pace, and target 61-62 minutes, or 2) run aggressively and see how long you can stick with the leaders for the experience. If the race is targeting 58:00, that is 27:30, which would be a national 10K road race record. The first scenario would be the safest, but there is not much more to learn running in no-man's land. He would get a mediocre PB, and place 17th-20th. Given Jakob's aggressive running style and competitive nature, the second scenario seems an obvious choice. Getting a national record would still be a decent consolation prize.
For a 1500m/5000m runner who decides to aggressively stick with the leaders for as long as he can, one likely prediction is that he will not last the whole race. This is nothing to be ashamed of or a cause for humiliation, but rather a lesson to be learned in a race that has no importance in the 2024 season.
All you are writing in this post is very reasonable, if Jakob was a 1500/3000/5000m guy, who in the end of a long season impulsively would get some fun experience in an very off event -HM. Pretty much the same that Kerr has done twice; he even chose an un legitimate down hill course, and didn’t care about the competition, because it all was fun, and he knew he even was somewhat impressive in such an off event…
But that isn’t Jakob. -The core of Jakob’s running philosophy is that he is better the longer the distance, now, because of both his talent and training. That doesn’t of course mean that he runs faster in a HM unprepared than in a 3000m, and maybe unrested and leggy, it just means that on a lucky day (where his disadvantages from un preparedness is compensated by excellent weather and drafting, and an overall really good shape, as seen in his recent 1500meters and 3k WR) he could do a HM win or even a WR. But he knows he also could blow up (but only in the last km) because of the supposed exceptionally fast WR pace, and maybe has to sway into a very bad high 58 or even low 59, or at worst really really hit the wall, and copy his comatose “Stoltzekleiven up” and not being able to finish (without help). Or he would just give 10-15 sec to Sawe and Kiplimo the last two k’s. -All that would be fine in my eyes -it’s not now he (un prepared) should break the WR…
Jakob humiliated himself and was a clown in this race. But I really respect him, because he also was a hero, and a hero (that is real) should also always go through humiliation..!
I doubt Ingebrigtsen was humiliated. Rather than going home devastated, he probably headed to the nearest pub with some buddies for a few beers. Except for the Olympics, he had a great year including a 3:26.73, an incredible 3000m WR and multiple DL wins. His HM debacle couldn’t be more irrelevant. It just indicates the HM isn’t a good distance for him and nothing more.
It's his informed guess. He may be right, he may be wrong.
Informed by what? It isn't a guess; it is a claim. He argues he gets worse the shorter the distance from HM to1500. What facts support any of that? Facts, not guesses.
Informed by his training. Facts? His data from training. Could he be wrong? Yes.
After being reduced to a walk after 10k he finished in 34th place in 63 mins in an event he had previously described as his "best" distance. I'd hate to see what his worst is.
According to you, probably the 800m. Whatever he does, you only focus on less than stellar results.
From 3k/2m, the longer the distance the slower he has run. There is nothing he has done that shows he has as much talent for longer distances as he does for the 1500-2m. By the same token, no amount of training will make him a world class 800 runner.
He has never trained for the HM. So we don't know. I never thought he would be great beyond 5000m even if he could win a couple of important 10000m championship races. But we don't know.
Jakob humiliated himself and was a clown in this race. But I really respect him, because he also was a hero, and a hero (that is real) should also always go through humiliation..!
Humility and humiliation share the same root. While I think Jakob learned some humility there, I don't think it was humiliating. Remember that mountain race in Norway where things went really bad for him? It was a learning experience.
Absolutely. Who doesn't like such a good guy like Armstronglivs, who
lies all the time
always changes the subject when his nonsense is exposed that even he understands it
hundreds of times writes the same nonsense like to put it in the heads of everyone (Kejelcha didn't walked while setting a new WR - what a great information)
terribly calls all the others (exception his norwegian friend) stupid and much worse
even refuses to accept facts like race results if they don't fit his agenda
And so on.
What a likeable nice guy.
Armstronglivs has chosen a confrontationally style -one can say a lot about that choice. But here I only will point out that there’s a lot of advantage of such a style; f.x being allowed to call people idiots when they behave idiotic, or one think they do, but also contributing to establishment of a place were posters learn that there are different views and style one must learn to accept and endure. Simply learn that others don’t mean or chose to formulate exactly the same things like one self…And also that a confronting language doesn’t have to be all that bad or threatening, and can even carry some good points.
When Armstronglivs repeatedly calls me a blind Jakob fan I don’t rush to defend my self by finding examples of my criticism of Jakob, and citing them. Why? Simply because I know about these examples myself, and don’t have to show them to a forum that hasn’t paid attention. And I don’t care if I’m called blind or an idiot (sometimes rightfully) -my wife calls me far worse things than that on a daily basis, and she is my long time best friend…
I’m not perfect -when Arms and others criticise me, or call me an idiot I spontaneously try to grasp why and what they mean. And clearly I sometimes can be both an idiot and blind. But mostly blind I think -Armstronglivs has gotten me to think around something he said (something about being steered by one’s feelings and hopes, f.x when one speculates over how fast Jakob can run in the future) -I really think we all are influenced by our feelings in our reasoning, and I’m interested in how that f.x gets me to conclude wrongly (even when my gut feeling is that I have been very logical).
I’m impressed by how Armstronglivs insults posters. -He isn’t mean, like the ones who insult him -he just sets the record with as little energy that he needs. Is he always fair? Of course not, if he was, he would be God or Jesus or something -as adults we all need to find strategies to endure unfairness at this forum. -This is Letsrun; of course it’s not perfect. I myself can be frustrated about quite a lot here, but I learned quickly to lower my expectations when I started posting here some years ago. -This is not the high tower of intellectualism..! So I’m very pleased when I’m not ignored all the time, and also of all the interesting circus here…
Lastly: The main reason why I don’t do insults my self (so much) isn’t that I’m more polite or patient than f.x Armstronglivs -I just think it’s fun to watch the effect of being non insulting…
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
Humility and humiliation share the same root. While I think Jakob learned some humility there, I don't think it was humiliating. Remember that mountain race in Norway where things went really bad for him? It was a learning experience.
I mostly agree with you here. If he felt humiliated or not we would have to ask Jakob about to be sure. But I really like that he isn’t afraid of almost nothing…
You are quite right here, I think. -I for my part is very fixated on Jakob because he like me is a Norwegian, and because I find his project extremely unusual and interesting.
And I really like Armstronglivs (and now also rekrunner) who blesses these threads by answering posts and in so many ways gives me reactions I need.
And for the record: I really like and respect a number of runners, f.x a lot of African women who are really tough and likeable, and also from other continents, and African and Americans and European males I don’t root for, but like.
And I’m so narcissistic that I like being seen and answered -even when posters claim that my posts are the worst ever, or when Salvitore calls my frequent posts “your catalogue of unhinged babble” (forced me to think through things a little, and even my answer to him -should I kick him in his balls, or should I modulate my answer..?). Yes even your’s is appreciated..,!
Absolutely. Who doesn't like such a good guy like Armstronglivs, who
lies all the time
always changes the subject when his nonsense is exposed that even he understands it
hundreds of times writes the same nonsense like to put it in the heads of everyone (Kejelcha didn't walked while setting a new WR - what a great information)
terribly calls all the others (exception his norwegian friend) stupid and much worse
even refuses to accept facts like race results if they don't fit his agenda
And so on.
What a likeable nice guy.
Aside from saying at length how you feel about me (which doesn't bother me in the slightest) you have nothing to say of any factual interest on the subject being discussed. But that's you. Like many here, you take yourself too seriously and cannot cope with opinions you don't like.
Informed by what? It isn't a guess; it is a claim. He argues he gets worse the shorter the distance from HM to1500. What facts support any of that? Facts, not guesses.
Informed by his training. Facts? His data from training. Could he be wrong? Yes.
Then he wasn't very well informed, was he? Nothing shows he gets better the longer the distance.
After being reduced to a walk after 10k he finished in 34th place in 63 mins in an event he had previously described as his "best" distance. I'd hate to see what his worst is.
According to you, probably the 800m. Whatever he does, you only focus on less than stellar results.
I am simply saying in this thread there is nothing in his performances to suggest he gets better the longer the distance and it makes absolutely no sense that he should claim the HM is his "best" distance.
From 3k/2m, the longer the distance the slower he has run. There is nothing he has done that shows he has as much talent for longer distances as he does for the 1500-2m. By the same token, no amount of training will make him a world class 800 runner.
He has never trained for the HM. So we don't know. I never thought he would be great beyond 5000m even if he could win a couple of important 10000m championship races. But we don't know.
He has never said he would need to train specifically for the HM; he instead baldly claims it is his "best" distance and that he gets better the longer the distance. There is nothing that shows that.
This post was edited 30 seconds after it was posted.
He has never trained for the HM. So we don't know. I never thought he would be great beyond 5000m even if he could win a couple of important 10000m championship races. But we don't know.
He has never said he would need to train specifically for the HM.
You are still wrong about Lydiard. His formula was essentially the same for all his athletes and minor variations in individual programmes doesn't change that. The rest of your comment has become an empty mantra that you have said in every post.
Or you are. I guess you could say "essentially the same" when you ignore all the athlete and event specific training. During "track training" and "coordination" phases, Lydiard's "essentially the same" formula prescribes middle distance training for middle distance runners and long distance training for long distance runners. But "event specific" training was only part of what we knew from the Lydiard days -- the other part was timing your training to peak for the important races.
I, neither, think Jakob was in his best 10000m shape -his thinking of running the distance in champs un prepared might be based on the very real assumption of these races often being somewhat slow, and maybe that he could win them on his closing speed and even him being a hot weather freak… And yes, 10 is a higher number than 1.5, 3 and 5. But 5, f.x, is the closest number to 10, in the running events. -There’s some striking likeness between 5 and 10, especially for a guy who claims he is better the longer the distance..
Yes, we must give Jakob some slack, even in a so relatively (to our discussion) short event as the 10k, because of the track season (priorities). But not a whole minute or more..! (Take a look on Aregawi and Kejelcha etc who can impress both in the 3k and 10k in the same track season, and even the HM quite closely)…
Your example about Cheptegei fits my narrative much better than yours, I think. -He lead the WC xc to Kamworor with a huge margin, an only blew up (huge) in the last hundreds of meters. If Jakob had done something similar (that I think he feared; he’s not stupid) everything would have been fine… But I agree that all doesn’t have to be said and done when it comes to Jakob and 10k/HM -who knows; maybe he can keep his double threshold, and only do some longer long runs, and some long tempo runs ++, and down prioritise the 1500m, and everything would be fine. But he would then have to change his former saying -the very un nuanced and cocky and deceptive words about fast 10k/HM without any words at all about the need of changing his training / focus… For now he is a guy who significantly (and absurdly, and very unusually, compared to his competitors in the 5000m) gets worse the longer the distance, and not the opposite…
Jakob’s performance in Copenhagen was really really bad. Let me compare him to two other guys; first myself: I pretty much only ran 1.5 years in my teens because of injuries and very poor insight in training principles. But I ran an off event I was extremely poorly prepared for, because of injuries and because of lack of talent for the distance. And I front ran the whole damn thing. But I ran under the women’s WR, and my time is still better than the current WR. But I considered my self a hobby jogger in the event. So what does that make Jakob -he’s behind the women’s WR (yes not only behind one woman), despite excellent pacing in what he calls his best event. This is cognitive dissonance, because he clearly currently is a hobby jogger in the event. -His self declared, former grossly over weight, hobby jogger 36 years old brother, Kristoffer, might come closer to Jakob in the HM, than Jakob to the HM WR..!
Second example: In the 10k Jakob has all the features of a borderline B athlete. -Narve Gilje Nordås, which main focus is the 1500m (twice ran sub 3.30, WC bronze) just ran 27.31 in the 10k, in a totally un prepared race, with poorer packing than Jakob, coming from 190 km weeks altitude training after a near season pause where he was amazed of how bad shape he fell into. My point: If we give Jakob a 12.40 capacity in the 5000m he would be 25 sec better than Nordås’ 5000pb, but his 27.27 would only be 4 sec better than his countryman’s 10k run, whereas it should be at least 50 sec if Jakob is better the longer the distance. (Ok -I twist things a little, because Nordås might have sub 13 capacity in the 5000m, but still). -The signs of Jakob being a poor currently 10k runner can’t be overlooked, and provokingly it is tempting to prolong it even to the 5000m event (not the clown races, that has very little to do with running, but the fast ones, that Jakob hasn’t done).
I should of course have skipped the last two sentences, because unlike Armstronglivs I don’t necessarily thrive with the multiple downvotes, but what the heck (why not claim the truth now and then without any agenda what so ever) -fun to try other posters boots once in a while…
Yes 10 is closest to 5 -- and he set a 10K national record -- becoming the fastest ever Norwegian of all time. What a really really bad performance. What a clown.
The point about Cheptegei is that he went on to win and set World Records. No one judged his capability based on his 2017 World Cross Country performance. That would make no sense.
Yes 10 is closest to 5 -- and he set a 10K national record -- becoming the fastest ever Norwegian of all time. What a really really bad performance. What a clown.
The point about Cheptegei is that he went on to win and set World Records. No one judged his capability based on his 2017 World Cross Country performance. That would make no sense.
There are NRs and European records that are really weak, and there are some that are really strong. Henrik Ingebrigtsen beat some years ago the really weak 3.37 with 6 sec, and Jakob the really weak 7.40 with 23 sec. But in the 800m, f.x, the long time NR is strong, as is also the European record.
Jakob did beat the NR, in a really weak time -23 sec slower than a really weak European record -set by a 13.15 man. (Has to be compared to the WR + 10000m times). Yes, even the 10k WR is weak -Kipruto has run significantly faster, but is out because of ABP, EPO. But you don’t believe in the effect of that kind of doping, so the time shouldn’t in your reconning be considered inflated, maybe..?
Cheptegei is a good example of a come back kid. And even better now when he possible makes a difference in the HM/marathon with much better training. But comparing his 2017 race, where he way in front nearly crushed a field (consisting of guys like Kamworor) with Jakob being dragged to utterly collapse before the half mark, is a little ridiculous in my view…
I don’t see Jakob as an all over clown, or in a condescending way. On the contrary. I have of course a fundamentally respect for him. Also, and even especially, when he struggles and is heroic.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
Absolutely. Who doesn't like such a good guy like Armstronglivs, who
lies all the time
always changes the subject when his nonsense is exposed that even he understands it
hundreds of times writes the same nonsense like to put it in the heads of everyone (Kejelcha didn't walked while setting a new WR - what a great information)
terribly calls all the others (exception his norwegian friend) stupid and much worse
even refuses to accept facts like race results if they don't fit his agenda
And so on.
What a likeable nice guy.
Aside from saying at length how you feel about me (which doesn't bother me in the slightest) you have nothing to say of any factual interest on the subject being discussed. But that's you. Like many here, you take yourself too seriously and cannot cope with opinions you don't like.
I haven't said how I feel about you. Just described some of your behaviours: lying (often, a fact). never agreeing when exposed to be wrong (a fact), changing the subject when appropriate ( hundreds of times), terrible handling of others (all are stupid and so on), acting like a child when repeting the same stuff dozens of times, missing completely any logic in the argumentation (A faster B because of a single PB, despite constantly losing, C faster B because of a single win despite of weaker PBs - important: B is the hated athlete).
I could continue for a long time.
For sure you don't care to be criticised Nothing can change your behaviour just by an inch.
I'm interested in the thread subject and I have written to it.
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