While Phil’s training is not conventional marathon training I do think that it’s nearly ideal for him. One day of quicker work, one day of a high volume of LT reps and a long run building to over 20 miles consistently with lower mileage easy days in between and a day off. Stress is stress, whether it’s running, working or family. Perhaps 70-80 or more miles would have pushed Phil over the edge. But for busy adults with hectic lives (to quote Jay Johnson) this schedule is pretty perfect.
TheGarmin_Guy wrote:
Can someone please answer briefly - if I want to run 2:19 (or so) on 60-80 miles per week (having run 67:30 off 50 MPW), is this massive thread worth reading? I know there are gems on LetsRun - just hard to know for sure which is diamond and which is moissonite.
I jumped in on this thread when it was around 11 or 12 pages, since then I've kept up. I think it's quite interesting and worth the read, though that might depend on how much you like reading. You can easily skim over the less than useful posts.
Will it give you the magic plan for your goal? At least one person would say yes. I think if you're looking for ideas, there are a lot in here. And you could come away with a specific plan of attack, or some ideas to tweak a program around your own interests, time, strengths, etc.
Also kudos to HRE and all his contributions. Not only is he full of great running history, but his thoughts on people and life are really refreshing amidst all the trash that blows around in these forums.
itdepends wrote:
TheGarmin_Guy wrote:
Can someone please answer briefly - if I want to run 2:19 (or so) on 60-80 miles per week (having run 67:30 off 50 MPW), is this massive thread worth reading? I know there are gems on LetsRun - just hard to know for sure which is diamond and which is moissonite.
I jumped in on this thread when it was around 11 or 12 pages, since then I've kept up. I think it's quite interesting and worth the read, though that might depend on how much you like reading. You can easily skim over the less than useful posts.
Will it give you the magic plan for your goal? At least one person would say yes. I think if you're looking for ideas, there are a lot in here. And you could come away with a specific plan of attack, or some ideas to tweak a program around your own interests, time, strengths, etc.
Also kudos to HRE and all his contributions. Not only is he full of great running history, but his thoughts on people and life are really refreshing amidst all the trash that blows around in these forums.
Terrific, thank you. I'll give it some skimming and see what stands out.
I don't know all the players in here, but best of luck, all, trying for that next PR!
TheGarmin_Guy wrote:
Can someone please answer briefly - if I want to run 2:19 (or so) on 60-80 miles per week (having run 67:30 off 50 MPW), is this massive thread worth reading? I know there are gems on LetsRun - just hard to know for sure which is diamond and which is moissonite.
I'm sure a ton of guys would love to run 2:19 off of 60-80 miles a week. But they can't, so they run much more.
Think of all the OTQ guys who didn't have impressive PRs a few years ago. Did they run 2:19 off of continued low mileage or did they spend their time on the roads logging high mileage?
Is there a reason why you want to limit your miles? Do you really have the desire to put in the work to run 2:19?
Saturday Long Run? wrote:
While Phil’s training is not conventional marathon training I do think that it’s nearly ideal for him. One day of quicker work, one day of a high volume of LT reps and a long run building to over 20 miles consistently with lower mileage easy days in between and a day off. Stress is stress, whether it’s running, working or family. Perhaps 70-80 or more miles would have pushed Phil over the edge. But for busy adults with hectic lives (to quote Jay Johnson) this schedule is pretty perfect.
What examples of people does he have at a Major Elite level that have followed his program for years and with great gains. If none how do you know that it will be successful.
SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
This has been a fun thread to follow. JS has been good for Phil because Phil has some new variety in training, consistency and accountability. Theoretically he would be better off following a more traditional approach but he may not be as motivated and or as hungry. Marathon training can be a lonely thing, especially since Phil trains solo. I'm sure being in contact with JS helps keep his motivation up.
While JS seems to be naive and bordering on ignorant when it comes to marathon training, I think his system could be good for someone trying to get to a respectable level in the half-marathon and under distance.
I have a friend that reminds me of Phil. He has excellent leg speed and hovered around 60-70 miles a week with 2-3 big sessions a week. His fast days were more impressive than guys under the OTQ but he never got close to 2:20 off that training. Having fast workouts is easier on low volume training because you don't have a lot of cumulative fatigue going on, which is a big key to marathon training.
Once my buddy started training with some ultra guys and increased his mileage to well over 100 miles a week with more moderate type workouts, he became much faster.
If Phil runs under 2:19, JS will be having a field day and will claim his system is the best on Earth because he loves to speak in absolutes.
However, if Phil has a tough day, JS won't recognize it's due to lack of volume or training for the actual conditions of the course (26.2 miles over slow rollers). He will blame it on the weather, fueling issues, Phil's life schedule or anything other than the actual training. Good coaches learn from their mistakes, so hopefully JS will do the same.
I'd love to see Phil nail it because he's out there solo grinding with a full plate. But if he does go out in under 70 minutes, I see his legs falling apart the last 5-10 miles. It will be because of the lack of miles, having an inefficient marathon fuel tank and not being able to handle all of the eccentric loading of the downhills due to not training properly for the course.
With a sub 70 first half, I will be surprised if he breaks 2:22 and see him running somewhere around 2:24. If so, it's still a respective time off his training.
Now! Listen carefully ))) :) This coaching of Phil has already become a success! A new PB at 10 miles after 10 years waiting.. :) And on half the load of mileage he did back then......A couple of 15 min solo winning runs at 5 k and far from all out.
I know my stuff! :) I have done great marathon coaching before ( 4 guys from 2:07 - 2:10 ) and every runner I have coached from year 2015 up to know ( about 300 runners) of different levels has developed . Why do you think Phil will be an exception from this ? Maybe he won't break 2:19 in CIM but he is prepared to be able to run a 2:16-2:19 .If Phil will reach the goal sub 2:19 it will of course be a real homerun ))) ...and if not this journey during 23 weeks has been really exciting for me and to see his fast development.I just love to coach him because it just feels I myself running with the help of his body and effort! Cheers! :)
peekay wrote:
Crazy how the annoying troll on this thread is Prove it and not JS...times have changed.
Side note: Could the JS-coached Phil beat both Sage and Seth? I would laugh
Ok we shall see Sunday. No excuses. CMI is a major race and fast. If Phill runs under 2:19 like the thread is about, then JS has a point, but a DNF by Phill or a mid 2:25 or something else, then the JS plan doesn't work. We have been following this since the Summer and it all comes down to Sunday. It's put up or shut up. Phil gets the OTQ then JS is the great one with his program, but Phil DNF's or run 2:25 or worse 2:30 then the program has flaws.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
This has been a fun thread to follow. JS has been good for Phil because Phil has some new variety in training, consistency and accountability. Theoretically he would be better off following a more traditional approach but he may not be as motivated and or as hungry. Marathon training can be a lonely thing, especially since Phil trains solo. I'm sure being in contact with JS helps keep his motivation up.
While JS seems to be naive and bordering on ignorant when it comes to marathon training, I think his system could be good for someone trying to get to a respectable level in the half-marathon and under distance.
I have a friend that reminds me of Phil. He has excellent leg speed and hovered around 60-70 miles a week with 2-3 big sessions a week. His fast days were more impressive than guys under the OTQ but he never got close to 2:20 off that training. Having fast workouts is easier on low volume training because you don't have a lot of cumulative fatigue going on, which is a big key to marathon training.
Once my buddy started training with some ultra guys and increased his mileage to well over 100 miles a week with more moderate type workouts, he became much faster.
If Phil runs under 2:19, JS will be having a field day and will claim his system is the best on Earth because he loves to speak in absolutes.
However, if Phil has a tough day, JS won't recognize it's due to lack of volume or training for the actual conditions of the course (26.2 miles over slow rollers). He will blame it on the weather, fueling issues, Phil's life schedule or anything other than the actual training. Good coaches learn from their mistakes, so hopefully JS will do the same.
I'd love to see Phil nail it because he's out there solo grinding with a full plate. But if he does go out in under 70 minutes, I see his legs falling apart the last 5-10 miles. It will be because of the lack of miles, having an inefficient marathon fuel tank and not being able to handle all of the eccentric loading of the downhills due to not training properly for the course.
With a sub 70 first half, I will be surprised if he breaks 2:22 and see him running somewhere around 2:24. If so, it's still a respective time off his training.
Now! Listen carefully ))) :) This coaching of Phil has already become a success! A new PB at 10 miles after 10 years waiting.. :) And on half the load of mileage he did back then......A couple of 15 min solo winning runs at 5 k and far from all out.
I know my stuff! :) I have done great marathon coaching before ( 4 guys from 2:07 - 2:10 ) and every runner I have coached from year 2015 up to know ( about 300 runners) of different levels has developed . Why do you think Phil will be an exception from this ? Maybe he won't break 2:19 in CIM but he is prepared to be able to run a 2:16-2:19 .If Phil will reach the goal sub 2:19 it will of course be a real homerun ))) ...and if not this journey during 23 weeks has been really exciting for me and to see his fast development.I just love to coach him because it just feels I myself running with the help of his body and effort! Cheers! :)
JS an early OP had a point. Who are these 2:10 to 2:07 guys? Where are they now. Why did they stop your program?
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
This has been a fun thread to follow. JS has been good for Phil because Phil has some new variety in training, consistency and accountability. Theoretically he would be better off following a more traditional approach but he may not be as motivated and or as hungry. Marathon training can be a lonely thing, especially since Phil trains solo. I'm sure being in contact with JS helps keep his motivation up.
While JS seems to be naive and bordering on ignorant when it comes to marathon training, I think his system could be good for someone trying to get to a respectable level in the half-marathon and under distance.
I have a friend that reminds me of Phil. He has excellent leg speed and hovered around 60-70 miles a week with 2-3 big sessions a week. His fast days were more impressive than guys under the OTQ but he never got close to 2:20 off that training. Having fast workouts is easier on low volume training because you don't have a lot of cumulative fatigue going on, which is a big key to marathon training.
Once my buddy started training with some ultra guys and increased his mileage to well over 100 miles a week with more moderate type workouts, he became much faster.
If Phil runs under 2:19, JS will be having a field day and will claim his system is the best on Earth because he loves to speak in absolutes.
However, if Phil has a tough day, JS won't recognize it's due to lack of volume or training for the actual conditions of the course (26.2 miles over slow rollers). He will blame it on the weather, fueling issues, Phil's life schedule or anything other than the actual training. Good coaches learn from their mistakes, so hopefully JS will do the same.
I'd love to see Phil nail it because he's out there solo grinding with a full plate. But if he does go out in under 70 minutes, I see his legs falling apart the last 5-10 miles. It will be because of the lack of miles, having an inefficient marathon fuel tank and not being able to handle all of the eccentric loading of the downhills due to not training properly for the course.
With a sub 70 first half, I will be surprised if he breaks 2:22 and see him running somewhere around 2:24. If so, it's still a respective time off his training.
Now! Listen carefully ))) :) This coaching of Phil has already become a success! A new PB at 10 miles after 10 years waiting.. :) And on half the load of mileage he did back then......A couple of 15 min solo winning runs at 5 k and far from all out.
I know my stuff! :) I have done great marathon coaching before ( 4 guys from 2:07 - 2:10 ) and every runner I have coached from year 2015 up to know ( about 300 runners) of different levels has developed . Why do you think Phil will be an exception from this ? Maybe he won't break 2:19 in CIM but he is prepared to be able to run a 2:16-2:19 .If Phil will reach the goal sub 2:19 it will of course be a real homerun ))) ...and if not this journey during 23 weeks has been really exciting for me and to see his fast development.I just love to coach him because it just feels I myself running with the help of his body and effort! Cheers! :)
The whole thread was about running 2:19 off 70 mpw and using Phil as an example. We have followed for months and followed your predictions of even 2:15. What gives you the right to say that if he runs 2:25 or worse it's not the training's fault?
SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
TheGarmin_Guy wrote:
Can someone please answer briefly - if I want to run 2:19 (or so) on 60-80 miles per week (having run 67:30 off 50 MPW), is this massive thread worth reading? I know there are gems on LetsRun - just hard to know for sure which is diamond and which is moissonite.
I'm sure a ton of guys would love to run 2:19 off of 60-80 miles a week. But they can't, so they run much more.
Think of all the OTQ guys who didn't have impressive PRs a few years ago. Did they run 2:19 off of continued low mileage or did they spend their time on the roads logging high mileage?
Is there a reason why you want to limit your miles? Do you really have the desire to put in the work to run 2:19?
Thanks for keeping up. I would say my reasons are three-fold. One is the "standard" reason - I'm an attorney in "big law" that works long hours, has a family, etc., and just don't think, knowing myself, that I'll have much more time.
Another is more personal. I've run 100, 110, even (for a limited time) 120 mile weeks. I don't like how it feels to have running dominate your life. In conjunction with reason (1), I don't know that I can be a good attorney and a good husband and run 100 MPW. Like you said, some can. I just remember those days, and running really consumed my life.
The third is practical. I've run 31:00 and 67:30 with an average under 50 miles and no runs more than 15. I never considered myself a talented runner (see the above reason for the "why" - I had to really grind miles) but somehow I've come around to a more reasonable training load that has produced (for me) good results. I ran a 2:30 marathon off 31 miles/week average and a maximum MPW of 42. So I think that if I can squeeze out 60-70, I should have some headroom.
Thoughts? Sorry for the long post.
S. Canaday wrote: Well Sage ....you have come to the point with this coaching! :) My marathon PR is 2:22:09 on a quite tuff course, the Stockholm marathon, and I did it twice exactly on the second! ))) Back then I didn`t run specific long runs with faster pace at the end and I didn`t run LT:s at the very best individual pace . Nowadays I know how to do it the best way and Phil with very similar PB:s as me back then is my way to prove to myself how fast I should have run if knowing then what I know today about "the magic way" of training.
To run a 2.15 with my system is not far from running a 2:19 .....it`s just a couple of seconds per 400m in training difference. :) Maybe you should hire me to coach you to your first sub 2:15 , lol )))) Welcome!
- J.S -
I think I found JS on Strava. Obviously Phil is real. Good luck this weekend!
However, where does this 2:15 come from? As someone who only ran 2:16:52 I kinda know how long the journey is down from 2:22 to 2:16. And 2:15 is obvioulsy quite a bit better than just the OTQ at 2:19:00 (which is hard enough for me these days to try to hit). So why the "2:15"?....
JS isn't your marathon PR over 2:20?
Back in hs, college and even nowadays it used to be all about 400m and 1km repeats. I've actually been doing more of that focus lately as well (But mainly because I'm coming from an ultra running base and am used to slogging around in the mountains). Those did seem to be quite magical (and I hate 800m repeats) at many times in training. At Hansons it was all about high mileage and threshold work for 3 x 3-miles, 5 x 2 miles etc. then sprinkle in some 1km and mile repeats and 8-10 mile "cut downs". With Canova we see a lot of variations with alternating speed Long Runs at brutally close to MP effort.
It appears Phil has plenty of speed -efficiency and an LT velocity to OTQ....it will just be a matter of what he can do in the last 10km.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Whatever the outcome on Sunday everything with my system is already proven when it comes to Phil ))) Already running a PB at 10 miles after 10 years!! , .....running a 15:08 5 k and not all out ,winning, running a 15:28
5 k Turkey Trot winning by 1:14 min and lots of power left. Well.....let the show begin on Sunday! )))Whatever happens it will be a very exciting race to follow! ))) And whatever happens I and Phil will continue the journey to sub 2:15 . Remember the cause why I wanted to coach Phil. He is almost an exact copy of myself aged 27-28 and with same PB:s and he is my big "project" to see how fast I could have been back then if I had known what I know today about optimal effective training. Good day! :)
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
S. Canaday wrote: Well Sage ....you have come to the point with this coaching! :) My marathon PR is 2:22:09 on a quite tuff course, the Stockholm marathon, and I did it twice exactly on the second! ))) Back then I didn`t run specific long runs with faster pace at the end and I didn`t run LT:s at the very best individual pace . Nowadays I know how to do it the best way and Phil with very similar PB:s as me back then is my way to prove to myself how fast I should have run if knowing then what I know today about "the magic way" of training.
To run a 2.15 with my system is not far from running a 2:19 .....it`s just a couple of seconds per 400m in training difference. :) Maybe you should hire me to coach you to your first sub 2:15 , lol )))) Welcome!
- J.S -
I think I found JS on Strava. Obviously Phil is real. Good luck this weekend!
However, where does this 2:15 come from? As someone who only ran 2:16:52 I kinda know how long the journey is down from 2:22 to 2:16. And 2:15 is obvioulsy quite a bit better than just the OTQ at 2:19:00 (which is hard enough for me these days to try to hit). So why the "2:15"?....
JS isn't your marathon PR over 2:20?
Back in hs, college and even nowadays it used to be all about 400m and 1km repeats. I've actually been doing more of that focus lately as well (But mainly because I'm coming from an ultra running base and am used to slogging around in the mountains). Those did seem to be quite magical (and I hate 800m repeats) at many times in training. At Hansons it was all about high mileage and threshold work for 3 x 3-miles, 5 x 2 miles etc. then sprinkle in some 1km and mile repeats and 8-10 mile "cut downs". With Canova we see a lot of variations with alternating speed Long Runs at brutally close to MP effort.
It appears Phil has plenty of speed -efficiency and an LT velocity to OTQ....it will just be a matter of what he can do in the last 10km.
JS all this comes down to Sunday. Don't come back on here with excuse after excuse on Sunday. The pressure is on you not Phil Sunday.
Question for Phil wrote:
Phil, I've been following this thread for a while and wish you the best of luck this weekend.
Question for you - would you recommend the JS plan regardless of someone's talent level, or do you think his approach has worked especially well with you so far based on your strengths and the fact that you do have an impressive background/lifetime base mileage?
We have a lot in common - 30s, WIAC alum, two young kids, busy jobs, similar builds, impressive salary/wife attractiveness - but you're a whole lot faster than me (I do have a full head of hair though). Do you think this basic template (400s, LT repeats, long run) is feasible regardless of someone's profile, or are there any adjustments you'd make for novices/the less talented?
Sorry Prove it! if I'm making your head explode from the free publicity JS is getting, but this thread has piqued my interest as someone who has to train on limited time.
How's it going Phillippi?
Showed is set wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
JS all this comes down to Sunday. Don't come back on here with excuse after excuse on Sunday. The pressure is on you not Phil Sunday.
Did you know that to do your best performance you need a little bit positive pressure?. And I promise to not write any excuses if there won't be any pertinent... :) This is ( agreement between me and Phil) a never ending story and many more exciting races to come . Cheers! Good day! :)
There is one thing for sure! :) You will disappear from this thread if Phil breaks 2:19, lol ))))
Marathon expert wrote:
[quote]SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
[quote]SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
The whole thread was about running 2:19 off 70 mpw and using Phil as an example. We have followed for months and followed your predictions of even 2:15. What gives you the right to say that if he runs 2:25 or worse it's not the training's fault?
Because marathon is marathon ! :) You never can tell if you will have a good day right on race day....
You say I have predicted even 2:15 for the race on Sunday? Maybe I did....but I can`t remember that in a long thread.
I think I remember the 2:15 was mentioned as a further goal for Phil in the future? Now I have told Phil is trained to do a 2:16-2:19 on Sunday. If it will happen we just have to wait and see.Anyway it gonna be thrilling! Good day! :)
Major thanks!
So you coached yourself to a 2:22? Off of what kinds of 5km/10km PRs? Coach JS you also hinted that Phil could eventaully run "2:15 or so" (if you continue working with him or something?). I don't mean to be critical, I'm just looking at the numbers/data and training and racing projections. I'm just wondering where this 2:15 time comes from? The OTQ at 2:19:00 is already a great goal....but again there is a big difference between a 2:19:00 guy and a 2:15:00 guy (At least in my experience and training with my Hansons teammates who many topped out right at 2:14-2:15). I think the 1km repeat workouts and all the LT/critical velocity 5km-2km reps have been great workouts (as well as his quick and high volume 400m workouts on short rest). However, it seems like the Long Runs (long specific) and obviously a bit higher mileage (usually it seems like 90+-110mpw is generally better for OTQ types of guys) could be lacking in the plan. I know Phil was crunched for time and has a family/real job (and had to train in the cold ice and snow!) so that is why the lower mileage and higher intensity focus....will be interesting to see how this weekend goes!
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Marathon expert wrote:
[quote]SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
[quote]SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
The whole thread was about running 2:19 off 70 mpw and using Phil as an example. We have followed for months and followed your predictions of even 2:15. What gives you the right to say that if he runs 2:25 or worse it's not the training's fault?
Because marathon is marathon ! :) You never can tell if you will have a good day right on race day....
You say I have predicted even 2:15 for the race on Sunday? Maybe I did....but I can`t remember that in a long thread.
I think I remember the 2:15 was mentioned as a further goal for Phil in the future? Now I have told Phil is trained to do a 2:16-2:19 on Sunday. If it will happen we just have to wait and see.Anyway it gonna be thrilling! Good day! :)
The real coach wrote:
[quote]SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
[quote]SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
JS an early OP had a point. Who are these 2:10 to 2:07 guys? Where are they now. Why did they stop your program?
All are Kenyans. The winner of Valencia marathon 2016 at 2:07:38 Victor Kipchirchir . I sharpened him up in just 2 ½ months to run the fastest marathon in his career ( He ran a 2:08:52 in Seoul the year after without me as coach) .
Elisha Kipchirchir also 2016 and I sharpened him up from a PB of 2:13:46 to the win in Nice -Cannes marathon at 2:10:44 in just 3 months.
Duncan Maiyo also 2016 and I coached him to 4th place in Eindhoven marathon at his PB 2:09:25 ( also I coached him to 5th place in the half The Great North Run and a PB a month before at 1:02:06 )
Richard Kiprop Mengich in his debut marathon in Eindhoven 2016 to a 2:10:39 and his second marathon in Paris 2017 and 2:08:46 ( Still his standing PB )
Why did they stop my program ? Different causes......one of them didn`t want publicity and his manager thought he was self coached and accused me to be a lier, lol ))) ) ......One had personal problems and never ran faster than under my wings......one just disappear without saying anything after his win., not even a thanks......another thought he should do it his way and never ran faster after my coaching.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
There is one thing for sure! :) You will disappear from this thread if Phil breaks 2:19, lol ))))
JS, you should not be permitted back on the boards if Phil goes home devastated. 2:19 or bust. If he runs 2:25 or something worse, l hope the front page reads JS goes home devastated! You are a fraud!