I too think it will be different next time. But he was too bad both at the 10k and the finish line to link this only to some thinning of the training in the track season. -We know he keeps up his mileage / strength work even in the season. And 27.27 should have been easy peasy for him, with that excellent drafting. And he planned and ran the 5000m as a double in three champs that season -of course he didn’t forget his strength work…
And he didn’t jog it in. -He dragged himself through hell, all the way. -Just rewatch and hear what he says about it… But the most important is what he has kept repeating in the years and months before the race: HM as his sweet spot, based on the current over all training, and that he is (clearly permanently) so good distance trained that he could have run the 10000m in the champs, in addition to 1500/5000m (clearly without a change in the training/preparations) if it wasn’t for the colliding schedule. -This from an athlete that runs a 10k one minute slower than he should with that kind of fatigue!
WTH are you talking about? He ran a half-marathon with no specific preparation, at the end of a long season focused on running 1500m/5000m. This alone should temper all expectations.
Jakob's expectations were tempered. He didn't say he was in peak shape and ready to set world records in Copenhagen 2024, but that this was a first time test to see if he could even reach the finish.
He ran a national 10K road record, and you think this is "too bad" and he "dissappointed grossly". Then he still closed the last 11.1K, running alone, at faster than 3:15 pace, including all the walking, and you say this wasn't even jogging, but dragging himself through hell.
Arguing that he should be dissappointed because he didn't do something he never said he would at Copenhagen, is head-scratching to say the least.
The thing he has said and never retracted (but that you repeatedly ignore), is that he is "a HM man" and the HM is his "best distance", and that he gets progressively worse the shorter the distances. That is the expectation he carried into Copenhagen.
When has he ever said he needed specific preparation for the HM? Did he say it either before or after the race? No. If he hadn't undertaken that preparation, and known it was necessary (which you claim it is, while never having competed at that level), why would he have chosen to race against the best in the world, with the expectations it carries? Does he enjoy being humiliated? He clearly doesn't subscribe to the view repeatedly made on this board that his result at Copenhagen was because he didn't train correctly.
Right! Copenhagen was merely an experiment. When running your first half marathon or marathon it's always best to run it as an experiment.... not take it seriously.
Right! Copenhagen was merely an experiment. When running your first half marathon or marathon it's always best to run it as an experiment.... not take it seriously.
But it's his "best distance". He told us so.
You don't understand what "specificity" means when it comes to training.
Right! Copenhagen was merely an experiment. When running your first half marathon or marathon it's always best to run it as an experiment.... not take it seriously.
But it's his "best distance". He told us so.
Yes, it's his best distance. But the Copenhagen race was merely an experiment to see how his body would react at the end of a long Olympic season.
WTH are you talking about? He ran a half-marathon with no specific preparation, at the end of a long season focused on running 1500m/5000m. This alone should temper all expectations.
Jakob's expectations were tempered. He didn't say he was in peak shape and ready to set world records in Copenhagen 2024, but that this was a first time test to see if he could even reach the finish.
He ran a national 10K road record, and you think this is "too bad" and he "dissappointed grossly". Then he still closed the last 11.1K, running alone, at faster than 3:15 pace, including all the walking, and you say this wasn't even jogging, but dragging himself through hell.
Arguing that he should be dissappointed because he didn't do something he never said he would at Copenhagen, is head-scratching to say the least.
The thing he has said and never retracted (but that you repeatedly ignore), is that he is "a HM man" and the HM is his "best distance", and that he gets progressively worse the shorter the distances. That is the expectation he carried into Copenhagen.
When has he ever said he needed specific preparation for the HM? Did he say it either before or after the race? No. If he hadn't undertaken that preparation, and known it was necessary (which you claim it is, while never having competed at that level), why would he have chosen to race against the best in the world, with the expectations it carries? Does he enjoy being humiliated? He clearly doesn't subscribe to the view repeatedly made on this board that his result at Copenhagen was because he didn't train correctly.
Why should he issue any retraction? He may still be "a HM man" and it still may be his "best distance". There is no contradiction and no need for retraction. I didn't repeatedly ignore anything, but embraced the forward looking quote.
Jakob doesn't need to say he needs specific training -- we've known about training and peaking since the days of Lydiard. But just the same, Jakob did say tell us. I provided you the quotes already. Just days before Copenhagen he told us "You can't just wake up and jump in the race and break a world record" and "it takes a lot of time and there's still a lot of work to be done to get there". He told us his expectation is that "after a long season on the track working towards the 1500m, it’s exciting to see if I even can reach the finish line".
All this talk about humiliation and these thoughts and aspiriations he must have secretly had when he decided to jump in the race are pure fabrication on your part.
You start out with non-sensical assumptions and create false expectations, only to draw nonsense conclusions based on not meeting false expectations.
The only possible narratives are the ones that consider that he didn't train for 10K or the half-marathon, and that this was a last minute addition to a long season focused on 1500m/5000m. This is true, regardless of what Jakob said then and now. But he did tell us the same thing now. This is not the way to enter a race for running your 10K and half-marathon personal bests, so we should stop pretending that was ever the right benchmark.
27:27 is not a very bad time under these conditions, for 10km en route to a half-marathon finish. For reference, he set a national record -- not too bad. 63 minutes was not optimal, but it is still not a bad time, under these conditions. There is no doubt that training and peaking and getting into races with the right conditions and pacers will produce faster times, but none of that is applicable here.
Whether or not anyone thinks he is better built for the HM than 1500m/3000m, the Copenhagen race should change nothing.
Jakob has repeatedly stated that his talent and overall training are better suited for 10000m and HM (especially the last event) than the shorter distances. And he has stated that he thins down his training during the track season significantly less than most athletes. And that he is ready for a competitive 10000m almost with no preparation (the last sentence is my interpretation)…. Does that mean he has to prove that HM is his best event, mid September and 36 hours after his last 1500m race? Of course not..!
Yes, 27.27 isn’t bad en route to a HM. But the problem is that he was totally gassed, and had to stop, and rest on his knees, and immediately give up running with the chase pack. -That indicates an almost all out 10k in my view. And on 15 k he was reported swaying before stopping again -no easy jogging to the finish line. And he owns these things in the interviews afterwards…
You cherry pick things Jakob are saying, without evaluating the context, and without citing all the contradictory things he has also said. -You seem to think you are objective and don’t interpret, but you do, and seem to miss that you must consider all Jakob’s sayings, and balance them in a totality…
You rightly point out that what others think about his “build” doesn’t change a thing. -I just mentioned the pod cast because you started your post with WTH, as I was the only person in the world that could think that Jakob overestimated his own HM abilities. But here we have two guys that think Jakob can break the 5000m WR, but struggle to see him as a distance guy (because of Copenhagen). It’s a valid point I think, because it says a couple of things about the expectations Jakob voluntarily has given about his best distance, and how some people now try to get it down to earth…
Jakob planned his HM two weeks before the race, and took the decision to race on race day. Why? Because he was in very good shape (his 3000m and 1500m showed this), and he was probably a little irritated over the ending of the season when he felt he had more to give. On the other hand he had only had 36 hours rest, and more than everything I think he must have been subconsciously very uncertain about the outcome, which he really should have been, as it turned out. -Therefore the “don’t know if I even reach the finish line” (and between the lines “in a super fast race, as it was expected to be” -his concern was of course not a disability to run a 21k -he regularly runs 20k long runs- it was to run a fast 21k). And his sayings about preparing before WR attempts could hardly be about the HM, which he never officially would pose as a WR attack on his own behalf, of course. But it was probably about the 5000m (and certainly not about the 3000m, which he didn’t need to prepare all that much) and especially the 1500m, which he thinks is a huge task to beat…
Jakob could have run minutes faster with better preparation, and also a significantly better 10k. -Especially if he was leggy only that day, doesn’t open so fast, and maybe has a normal good day. But he hasn’t claimed a bad day shape, for now. And there’s a pattern here that seems to escape you: In 2019 he ran his second worst race (according to himself) in u20 WC xc; 8k. And the worst (again Jakob’s words) was Copenhagen. Meaning: His worst race was his longest global one (above 5k), his second worst was his second longest. -A coincidence? -Hardly..! And the xc was in March 30th -no damaging focus on the 1500m then. And he also ran a well paced 10k in late October the same year; also quite slow, although he seemed to give it his best (he beat the then NR with one sec).
My hope: I hope Jakob still will have his main focus on the 1500m, and breaks the WR, and wins the WC. After that I hope he leaves the 1500m, and changes his training to suit the 5000m, and eventually 10k/HM. For now I strongly disagree in his sayings about his training being best suited for 10000m/HM…
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
Yes, 27.27 isn’t bad en route to a HM. But the problem is that he was totally gassed, and had to stop, and rest on his knees, and immediately give up running with the chase pack. -That indicates an almost all out 10k in my view.
I don't have the time to read your lengthy post but the pacing was far from even. The second 5k split was 13:33. That's 57:10 pace!
You start out with non-sensical assumptions and create false expectations, only to draw nonsense conclusions based on not meeting false expectations.
The only possible narratives are the ones that consider that he didn't train for 10K or the half-marathon, and that this was a last minute addition to a long season focused on 1500m/5000m. This is true, regardless of what Jakob said then and now. But he did tell us the same thing now. This is not the way to enter a race for running your 10K and half-marathon personal bests, so we should stop pretending that was ever the right benchmark.
27:27 is not a very bad time under these conditions, for 10km en route to a half-marathon finish. For reference, he set a national record -- not too bad. 63 minutes was not optimal, but it is still not a bad time, under these conditions. There is no doubt that training and peaking and getting into races with the right conditions and pacers will produce faster times, but none of that is applicable here.
Whether or not anyone thinks he is better built for the HM than 1500m/3000m, the Copenhagen race should change nothing.
Jakob has repeatedly stated that his talent and overall training are better suited for 10000m and HM (especially the last event) than the shorter distances. And he has stated that he thins down his training during the track season significantly less than most athletes. And that he is ready for a competitive 10000m almost with no preparation (the last sentence is my interpretation)…. Does that mean he has to prove that HM is his best event, mid September and 36 hours after his last 1500m race? Of course not..!
Yes, 27.27 isn’t bad en route to a HM. But the problem is that he was totally gassed, and had to stop, and rest on his knees, and immediately give up running with the chase pack. -That indicates an almost all out 10k in my view. And on 15 k he was reported swaying before stopping again -no easy jogging to the finish line. And he owns these things in the interviews afterwards…
You cherry pick things Jakob are saying, without evaluating the context, and without citing all the contradictory things he has also said. -You seem to think you are objective and don’t interpret, but you do, and seem to miss that you must consider all Jakob’s sayings, and balance them in a totality…
You rightly point out that what others think about his “build” doesn’t change a thing. -I just mentioned the pod cast because you started your post with WTH, as I was the only person in the world that could think that Jakob overestimated his own HM abilities. But here we have two guys that think Jakob can break the 5000m WR, but struggle to see him as a distance guy (because of Copenhagen). It’s a valid point I think, because it says a couple of things about the expectations Jakob voluntarily has given about his best distance, and how some people now try to get it down to earth…
Jakob planned his HM two weeks before the race, and took the decision to race on race day. Why? Because he was in very good shape (his 3000m and 1500m showed this), and he was probably a little irritated over the ending of the season when he felt he had more to give. On the other hand he had only had 36 hours rest, and more than everything I think he must have been subconsciously very uncertain about the outcome, which he really should have been, as it turned out. -Therefore the “don’t know if I even reach the finish line” (and between the lines “in a super fast race, as it was expected to be” -his concern was of course not a disability to run a 21k -he regularly runs 20k long runs- it was to run a fast 21k). And his sayings about preparing before WR attempts could hardly be about the HM, which he never officially would pose as a WR attack on his own behalf, of course. But it was probably about the 5000m (and certainly not about the 3000m, which he didn’t need to prepare all that much) and especially the 1500m, which he thinks is a huge task to beat…
Jakob could have run minutes faster with better preparation, and also a significantly better 10k. -Especially if he was leggy only that day, doesn’t open so fast, and maybe has a normal good day. But he hasn’t claimed a bad day shape, for now. And there’s a pattern here that seems to escape you: In 2019 he ran his second worst race (according to himself) in u20 WC xc; 8k. And the worst (again Jakob’s words) was Copenhagen. Meaning: His worst race was his longest global one (above 5k), his second worst was his second longest. -A coincidence? -Hardly..! And the xc was in March 30th -no damaging focus on the 1500m then. And he also ran a well paced 10k in late October the same year; also quite slow, although he seemed to give it his best (he beat the then NR with one sec).
My hope: I hope Jakob still will have his main focus on the 1500m, and breaks the WR, and wins the WC. After that I hope he leaves the 1500m, and changes his training to suit the 5000m, and eventually 10k/HM. For now I strongly disagree in his sayings about his training being best suited for 10000m/HM…
There’s always a danger of overthinking things when one tries to go broad or deep into things. But there’s also often a weakness to skip details and context…
To round up my take on Jakob here: I think he will be a real interesting interview object in the coming years. -Especially his thoughts about him being too superficially and cocky about his automatically distance abilities based on current training. And how he thinks he can solve that problem. And it will be exciting to watch his progress here…
I show I'm a loser when I start talking about the HM in a discussion about his 3000m or his 5000m or Kejelcha's WR.
See how that applies to you?
The post raising that was removed. I guess that shows the commenter was a loser. You also haven't followed the discussion on the thread, which has been about Ingebrigtsen's HM for several pages.
This post was edited 15 minutes after it was posted.
The thing he has said and never retracted (but that you repeatedly ignore), is that he is "a HM man" and the HM is his "best distance", and that he gets progressively worse the shorter the distances. That is the expectation he carried into Copenhagen.
When has he ever said he needed specific preparation for the HM? Did he say it either before or after the race? No. If he hadn't undertaken that preparation, and known it was necessary (which you claim it is, while never having competed at that level), why would he have chosen to race against the best in the world, with the expectations it carries? Does he enjoy being humiliated? He clearly doesn't subscribe to the view repeatedly made on this board that his result at Copenhagen was because he didn't train correctly.
Why should he issue any retraction? He may still be "a HM man" and it still may be his "best distance". There is no contradiction and no need for retraction. I didn't repeatedly ignore anything, but embraced the forward looking quote.
Jakob doesn't need to say he needs specific training -- we've known about training and peaking since the days of Lydiard. But just the same, Jakob did say tell us. I provided you the quotes already. Just days before Copenhagen he told us "You can't just wake up and jump in the race and break a world record" and "it takes a lot of time and there's still a lot of work to be done to get there". He told us his expectation is that "after a long season on the track working towards the 1500m, it’s exciting to see if I even can reach the finish line".
All this talk about humiliation and these thoughts and aspiriations he must have secretly had when he decided to jump in the race are pure fabrication on your part.
You don't understand Lydiard. He didn't advocate event specificity for md and distance runners. He trained an 800m runner the same way he trained a 5k-10k or marathon runner. Endurance base, hill work and sharpening phases.
What has Ingebrigtsen done that shows the HM is his "best" distance, as he claims?
Your talk about how Ingebrigtsen would have seen his performance, and the satisfaction you claim he took from it, is purely fanciful. He has said words to the effect it was one of the most painful races he has ever run.
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