David Epstein/Pro Publica/BBC Story: Former Team Members Accuse Famed Coach Alberto Salazar of Breaking Drug Rules

rekrunner wrote:

No -- the goalpost is "top athletes".

What I meant by "shifting the goalposts" was your demand to see Spaniards (or any group of runners) who have improved their national marks by the same 7 percent that the decidedly non-elite Mark Daly claimed to improve his own wattage by. No one making a serious argument would focus on that figure. It would suggest that someone capable of running 3:30.00 clean could run 3:15.3 on EPO.

I appreciate your analysis, but I do think you are cherry-picking to an extent. Not on the statistical side, but from a functional standpoint. No European has run faster than 2:06:36 since April 2003, whereas a bevy of East Africans have helped drag the WR down from 2:05:38 to 2:02:57 since then.

I would not be the first one to propose that East Africans have perennially been drug-tested with far less frequency and enthusiasm than Europeans and Americans. That is undeniably a possible contributor to the drop.

Anyway, to me, the idea that EPO doesn't work on some people always comes back to why it wouldn't work. This would simply mean that its mechanism of action (to increase RBC count) is somehow impeded. Either EPO doesn't stimulate the bone marrow to produce more RBCs in some people (specifically, people in certain ethnic groups) or the RBCs that it does produce somehow doesn't lead to a greater oxygen-carrying capacity in the recipient. If the latter is true, this would mean that the RBCs produced are somehow defective.

I mean, can we agree that if someone's RBC and hence hematocrit rises, their O2-carrying capacity and hence aerobic capacity rises as well? That's basic physiology, right?

The only other thing I can think of is that the hematocrit of every super-duper-world-class East African is already so high that EPO would not engender a further increase. This seems extremely unlikely at best, considering the non-negligible number of otherwise robust pro cyclists who have died of strokes thanks to blood with a viscosity perhaps not unlike that of tapioca pudding, secondary to exogenous EPO administration (with dehydration putting the nails in their coffins).

So, do all of these super-fast guys naturally have hematocrits hovering around 50 percent, and that's their essential advantage? This, too, seems like a far-fetched idea. I've always thought that the fastest marathoners in the world achieve their standing through some combination of superior running economy, optimal fuel utilization, very efficient heat dissipation, and aerobic capacity. If EPO doesn't work in certain elites, it must be because they are at the very top of the economy-fuel-heat dissipation pyramid and also have an optimal hematocrit (again, about 50 percent, I guess) via natural means.

This is not to suggest that the top African marks are necessarily dirty. Like many here, I just balk unsubstantiated scientific claims, or claims that could easily (in theory) be resolved by scientific means.

Can we leave the EPO doesn't work nonsense in another thread?

It's complete BS.

You start from a false hypothesis : that the hematocryt of East Africans is very high. This is not true. When we go to test the blood values of the best runners in the world, we never find very high hematocryt.

What I Always say, is : we need to start to discuss the effects of training, if we want to understand the effects of doping. This normally doesn't happen : everybody speaks about doping, connecting their believes with investigations carried out with "average people", and NEVER, in any type of research, the training of who was investigated was involved.

As Albert Einstein said : "Theory is when we know everything, but nothing works. Practice is when everything works, but we don't know why. The most part of people are able to combine theory and practice : they don't know anything, and nothing works".

BS is right when comes to renato.

1

east africans have a natural lower hct

than europeans .

so more of enhancement when do raise it

and not all about hct also how well body

and muscles utilise oxygen ,etc which

natives to high altitude in this region

seem to have.

epo definitely works on male athlete

but good to know wont raise hct very high

for females due to naturally less receptor activity ,etc.

so why females not as dominant and russians with systematic doping of epo and select others very compotent

and never discouraged or exodus from

event.

then there was paula and chinese that

used epo ,blood doping combo for max hct

2

elite distance running was already reducing in popularity in europe and

america etc and introduce influx of east

africans and especially dominance and

dominance enhanced by peds just

elite partiticipition nose dived to a select

few .like mottram but also doper.

that is untill NOP

Webb doesnt count as cera fueled.

3

see how morroco and spanish males competed during era .two countries with

a still somewhat popularity and even

then they prioritised middle distance for

any talent as where could be most

competitive and knew alot less chance against doped up high altitude athletes

where popularity at all time high there.

case by case epo doping for all above.

training better etc but ignoring as offset

by lesser numbers quality no systems in place looking for young.as no intertest .

european distance running had already gotten closer to peak with blooding doping

in select fewer cases but majority relied

on steroids as aid and to raise hct to varying degree .and best for middle distan

4.

where are all morrocans etc now

can only think of makilof as elite

if cant dope like before with such ease

and as result dont think possible to win

just result in what see.

5

how did galen do it

the legend that is salazar knew

it could be done but had to find it and start

young and then dope.

he has testerone for recovery like steroids

of old ,optional if young

he has high hct for endurance by whatever

means

and had igf-1 lr3 for middle distance speed

very important ,old timers never had this

.all about timing ...what would galen be like

on unrestricted epo or better cera.

Renato Canova wrote:

You start from a false hypothesis : that the hematocryt of East Africans is very high. This is not true. When we go to test the blood values of the best runners in the world, we never find very high hematocryt.

What I Always say, is : we need to start to discuss the effects of training, if we want to understand the effects of doping. This normally doesn't happen : everybody speaks about doping, connecting their believes with investigations carried out with "average people", and NEVER, in any type of research, the training of who was investigated was involved.

As Albert Einstein said : "Theory is when we know everything, but nothing works. Practice is when everything works, but we don't know why. The most part of people are able to combine theory and practice : they don't know anything, and nothing works".

I wasn't hypothesizing that the Hct of East Africans is unusually high; I was working backward from the hypothesis that EPO doesn't work on the best East Africans and attempting to account for it, if true. If in fact the Hct of these runners is in line with runners in the rest of the world, then I am back to wondering why EPO would have no measurable effect on their performances.

I agree that there are no research data to work with concerning world-class athletes and known EPO use. I maintain that this by itself doesn't justify the assumption that EPO does not or would not aid their performances. For now, at least, no definitive conclusions can be drawn in this area one way or the other, and it seems very doubtful for obvious reasons that any world-class runners will step forward during the peaks of their careers and submit to the necessary experimentation.

As others have pointed out, you fail to consider that distance-running records in non-African countries may have been doped prior to the introduction of EPO so you are not comparing a "clean" set of records from one era, with a "doped" set of records from another. The other huge flaw in your protracted argument (against a body of race performances demonstrating the opposite) that EPO does not work in non Africans is that during the 1990s through to today, participation in serious distance running (I don't mean numbers of people signing up to jog around a marathon) outside of East Africa has gone through a general decline. So despite the diminishing talent pool, national records still kept on improving in many European countries, all after the introduciton of EPO in the late 1980s.

I didn't say "pre-EPO" was "clean". For cycling, undetectable EPO was a "game changer", in the same "blood doped" to "EPO" transition. EPO supplied by European managers in the 90's, is often the reason given for the significant East African improvements from 1500m to the marathon.My whole point can be reduced to 1) the fact that we lack real performance data to make any informed conclusions about how EPO should behave at the top, whether African or non-African, and 2) if EPO works for East Africans, we should have seen comparable gains in the rest of the world, and yet we have not. The rest of the world seems stuck around 13:00, 27:00 and 2:06 -- barriers that are no challenge for many East Africans. Our EPO expectations seem to come from studies on "well trained" amateurs", and observations borrowed from cycling. These conclusions need to be adjusted, and we need reliable data closer to the top, to do it. Then we can decide if 1.5%, or 0.15% is more reasonable.

Whacko stato wrote:

As others have pointed out, you fail to consider that distance-running records in non-African countries may have been doped prior to the introduction of EPO so you are not comparing a "clean" set of records from one era, with a "doped" set of records from another. The other huge flaw in your protracted argument (against a body of race performances demonstrating the opposite) that EPO does not work in non Africans is that during the 1990s through to today, participation in serious distance running (I don't mean numbers of people signing up to jog around a marathon) outside of East Africa has gone through a general decline. So despite the diminishing talent pool, national records still kept on improving in many European countries, all after the introduciton of EPO in the late 1980s.

if we take the moroccans as a control group we can extrapolate the performance gains for elites as everyone of them was doped to the eyeballs

what happened to the morrocans around 1992-1993

all of a sudden their times started to plummet

suddenly performances in the 3-27 7-25 12-50 and 26-50 ballpark became the norm

that's your EPO performance gains for elites right there in those stats!!!!!

the exact same thing was happening with the east africans at the same time who are alegedly EPO free at this time?

So Moroccans are African, or non-African?

Said Aouita already set some good times around 1985 -- not sure how to interpret "all of a sudden". I don't find anything significant about 1992-1993 for Morocco.

You think Aouita was already on EPO, or was it old school blood doping and steroids?

You are half right. A couple comments about the main story to get back on track, now that we've had a week to digest the fallout.After a couple days, the interest in this scandal seems to have died down. About 40 pages in two days, and then nothing much more to say. Except I did notice a lot of deleted entries, including one I made over the weekend :-(Compare this to the Mike Rossi Boston Marathon thread, which is 279 pages and still growing.My take on this whole situation, is that a lot of people desparately seem to want to believe their is a huge NOP scandal, from Mary Slaney and birth control medication, to altitude houses, to thyroid medication, to TUE abuses (for medication not requiring TUEs?), to L-Carnitine. I can't decide which "smoke" analogy is best fitting:1) there is no smoking gun in these reports, so that's out2) is it "where there's smoke there's fire", or3) a lot of "smoke and mirrors"Many of the topics we already knew, like thyroid, and l-carnitine. These "gray areas" are substances that are not banned by WADA. These don't seem to be too out of line with all the rest: altitude houses, underwater treadmills, anti-gravity treadmills, cryogenic ice baths, ...I get a lot of people say that these things go too far and are uncomfortable with the spirit -- this is what Kara Goucher is so emotional about -- getting handed a vial of a non-banned substance. Salaszar might have broken state/federal laws, by playing doctor, but the substance seems to be not banned by WADA -- so can't technically be called cheating.Some are indeed troubling if true:1) Is "testosterone medication" really "testoboost"? Looks like Salaszar is a fan of "testoboost", so maybe. This certainly deserves clarification and investigation. But then again, how long is the statute of limitations?2) Don't know what to make of the IV stories.3) Rupp seems to have been asthmatic before Salaszar (?), so is "prednisone" being abused, or is it just for flare-ups?Looking forward to how further investigations play out.

pop_pop! wrote:

Can we leave the EPO doesn't work nonsense in another thread?

It's complete BS.

I want to believe you re EPO not having a significant impact on top athletes. However, no one can question that the general belief is that doping helps your training and performances. This is why most people are skeptical. If an athlete or coach believes it will make a difference and there is access to it then why would they not want to try given its fairly easy to get around the controls?

Also, do you think EPO can have a negative effect on training and performance? Please be honest, and if you say yes I will be convinced you've lost it.

Btw - when I think of Rhamzi I can't help but not believe anything you say re doping

This is right on the mark. Blood bagging wasn't a viable option for Kenyans and Ethiopians; epo was a much more convenient solution.

if can ignore doping for minute.....

( hard to as what track has simply become)

Salazar has single handedly done more to

resurrect the abslute decline in long distance running in America .

should be celebrated and given big thank u

marathon still in rapid fall .

he knowes what it takes to compete with

east africans .

who have a massive part to play in that decline besides other things like obesity et

dont blame salazar blame east africans

and their level of doping.

if salazar goes watch very few elites have

disappear.

if happy with that then idiot.

tell brits to stop interferring ,farah problem

might be better if left.

as for future of long distance in country

need future for NOP.

and salazar is best at helm as true leader

Ridiculous. You would make track even worse for the sake of patriotism??? That's the whole problem with the olympic, WC and medal mindset. Everyone turns a blind eye to cheating because the other countries cheat too.

As for western obesity, that and that alone - simply higher caloric intake levels - is the primary reason the east Africans dominate the west at distance. They may be as doped, but no way are they better at doping. They are naturally skinny, and if you don't know how enormous an advantage that is in distance running, you've never been both skinny and big.

Westerners tend to be skinny only as teenagers, then fill out to stouter adult bodies. The ones who succeed seem to freeze their development as if they were perpetual teenagers, but eventually biology wins and they have to stop. Look at Bob Kennedy now. 10 years after Galen Rupp retires, he will look the same.

East Africans eat so much less that their genes react by aiming for small, willowy adult bodies. Unlike western elites, they're not underweight, they've already filled out. Their recovery from workouts isn't impaired by attempts to artificially lower their weight. They don't need thyroid meds. They don't need chemicals to fool their bodies into prioritizing recovery over healthy weight. But it takes massive amounts of technology for a western runner to do the same training at the same low bodyweight.

And your excuse for it all seems to be that it works, a little bit. A silver medal here and there, yay America. And endless gold medals for the one east African put through the same techno machine. Champions of a corrupt sport. What's the point of that? Fix the sport first, then try to win.

Obesity is a growing problem in Kenya.

LOL AT SALAZEER AND AMERICANS. PROUD ALGERIAN DESERT LION MAKHLOUFI HE IS MORE CLEANER THEN ALL ATHLETES IN WORLD TOGETHER. CLEAN JIDAN!!! IN BEJING PROUD AFRICAN LION WILL MAKES SKINY ALIEN KIPROP AND ALL AMERICAN SCARE AND WEEP LIKE BABYS FOR MOMS MILK. MAKHLOUFI WILL WIN AND SET WORLD RECORD AND ALL AMERICAN WILL CRY OUT WHERE ARE MY DRUGS??? WHERE ARE MY EPOS????

JAAKIR wrote:

LOL AT SALAZEER AND AMERICANS. PROUD ALGERIAN DESERT LION MAKHLOUFI HE IS MORE CLEANER THEN ALL ATHLETES IN WORLD TOGETHER. CLEAN JIDAN!!! IN BEJING PROUD AFRICAN LION WILL MAKES SKINY ALIEN KIPROP AND ALL AMERICAN SCARE AND WEEP LIKE BABYS FOR MOMS MILK. MAKHLOUFI WILL WIN AND SET WORLD RECORD AND ALL AMERICAN WILL CRY OUT WHERE ARE MY DRUGS??? WHERE ARE MY EPOS????

Thank you. I'm printing this one and putting it on the wall.

What a great post. I mean that.

ACEX wrote:

Mo' to Come wrote:

More people will come out of the woodwork. The BBC, and other organizations, will get new and more revealing information. More programs will be forthcoming.

And more people will and are coming "out of the woodwork" on the people who spoke up against Alberto and Galan. There is a lot of skeletons in the closet for Magness, Goucher, ect.

This post cannot be overstated!! Just wait for it.....

(And letsrun, you might as well adopt the position right now.)

1) Salazar can’t be banned by WADA for allegedly giving Kara Goucher Cytomel.

*** probably prescribed, you'd think.

2) Salazar could potentially face a sanction for a “minimum of two years” and “up to four years” for abusing the Therapeutic Use Expemtion (TUE) process in coaching Galen Rupp on how to get an IV drip.

*** probably prescribed

3) If Salazar is found to have given Galen Rupp testosterone in high school, he will be banned from the sport for life.

*** probably prescribed, if this is the case.

Drugs that are prescribed by an MD will be tough to challenge.

however a large body of evidence, which is accumulating, might persuade a jury that the intent was to gain an advantage by gaming the system.

There is a lot of fun in watching the bullshit fly, from British Athletics making double statements, to Mo implying he's surprised about the allegations, to Al-Sal reading off corporate lawyer statements from the Nike "brain" trust.

Coe spoke best in supporting a friend, mind you a, I have time for you if you are an elite like me guy in Al-Sal, however, he left a back door for escape.. in his rhetoric.

Shakespeare would live it.