A closer look at EPO-era performances

pariah wrote:

These claims about EPO are fanstasy. No-one making these claims understands oxygen delivery and homeostasis. You can't exceed oxygen delivery in the way it is claimed in the EPO dogma. It's pure pseudoscience. The human body does not work like that.

I had to ask a few awkward questions over the last 27 about the supposed efficacy of EPO as a so called PED. No-one can or will answer those questions. Who here on this thread is actually interested in the physiology, let me know and sort the idiot trolls from the genuine posters.

Nope. The evidence is clear. Your theory is very much armchair physiologist. You have presented your silly thoughts over and over with no meat to the argument.

You've been given your answer, it's just not the one you want to hear.

PS Gary, stop deleting comments! Kill the whole thread rather than butchering it.

Jon Morange lab rats wrote:

PS Gary, stop deleting comments! Kill the whole thread rather than butchering it.

+1

~50 posts and 2 pages just flushed in the last hour...wow!

And he keeps saying he has nothing to do with it. Yet somehow his remain and all mine are gone. Nice gary i said nock that sh*t off.....nope you cant, your addicted to deleting arnt you? Some sick twisted power trip

pariah wrote:

These claims about EPO are fanstasy. No-one making these claims understands oxygen delivery and homeostasis. You can't exceed oxygen delivery in the way it is claimed in the EPO dogma. It's pure pseudoscience. The human body does not work like that.

Citation Jon Orange?

OTOH, any reason why increased O2 transport as a result of RBC infusion improved 10k running times to the tune of 69 seconds, on average, in this study?

Or why the effect of induced erythrocythemia inproved a 5-mile treadmill run time?

Blood doping increases RBCs which in turn increases oxygen delivery to the working muscles...nothing new there. ?

I got this for you, Jon!

I'll just use a randomly selected generic rebuttal/"proof" of yours.

These claims about EPO are fanstasy. No-one making these claims understands oxygen delivery and homeostasis. You can't exceed oxygen delivery in the way it is claimed in the EPO dogma. It's pure pseudoscience. The human body does not work like that.

More deletions.

They were all there before my last post, when I signed off and went to bed. Some were deleted and I don't understand why. Some of mine were deleted -- my answers to your many questions. Honestly, I would prefer those stay up, so you don't ask the same questions again. What I have noticed is that posts questioning the moderators' judgement tend not to survive.

weakermind wrote:

And he keeps saying he has nothing to do with it. Yet somehow his remain and all mine are gone. Nice gary i said nock that sh*t off.....nope you cant, your addicted to deleting arnt you? Some sick twisted power trip

As a gesture of solidarity, I think it's time for me to take an EPO myth-busting timeout.

I don't see anyone able to constructively contribute more on this topic.

I won't guarantee for how long, and I reserve the right to defend myself from personal or character attacks, or correcting blatant mischaracterizations of things I said.

If someone has a genuine question about some aspect of what I said, and addresses it properly to "rekrunner", I may respond.

rekrunner wrote:

As a gesture of solidarity, I think it's time for me to take an EPO myth-busting timeout.

I don't see anyone able to constructively contribute more on this topic.

I won't guarantee for how long, and I reserve the right to defend myself from personal or character attacks, or correcting blatant mischaracterizations of things I said.

If someone has a genuine question about some aspect of what I said, and addresses it properly to "rekrunner", I may respond.

I think that they are deleting posts because we have little commercial value value to them. People that come on here to talk about guns and girls must really bring in addition revenue. As I said running isn't profitable unless you're a podiatrist.

The deletions follow an obvious agenda - yours. For example, this one was evidently deleted:

casual obsever wrote:

Other observations with focus on male non-Africans as per rek's guidelines:

- times improved a lot from the 70's to the 80's (roid time)

- 5000 m times improved hugely after the 80's as well (no test for EPO)

- the fastest decade in the 5000 was the 00's (pre ABP)

- the fastest decade in the 800 was the 80's (roid time)

- the fastest 800 overall was in the 80's (roid time)

- the fastest 5000 overall was in the 90's (no test for EPO)

As for world records in long distance running:

- vast majority between late 90's and early 00's

- no male world record after ABP introduction and outing of corrupt Diack

- female world records continue to be broken, from countries with only rudimentary OOC testing and athletes on the IAAF likely doping list

- female marathon world record from the EPO era remains untouched.

And that is going on for years. Pointless indeed, but in the past I was too stubborn to quit.

Thanks for the personal jab. I'm not sure, and don't care, what obvious agenda you think I have. I wondered myself what was wrong with keeping this post, and I admired your using performance data by decade to make a point supported by data.

rekrunner wrote:

Thanks for the personal jab. I'm not sure, and don't care, what obvious agenda you think I have.

Wasn't really a jab - you are not exactly hiding your agenda.

Like letsrun and IAAF and WADA, you want to convince us that

- we have a clean sport (aside from very few bad apples);

- Paula was clean.

And unlike letsrun, but in line with IAAF and WADA, you want to convince us that

- NOP is clean;

- Aden is clean;

- UKAD/USADA/IAAF/WADA are trustworthy organizations.

And unlike letsrun and IAAF and WADA, you want to convince us that

- EPO barely works.

As for me, I think you are wrong on all counts. Obviously.

However, I do think that the claims of EPO being a wonder drug that improves everyone by several percent are exaggerated.

Way to step away from this thread, Gary. You just can't help yourself.

casual obsever wrote:

However, I do think that the claims of EPO being a wonder drug that improves everyone by several percent are exaggerated.

Hardly anyone takes it though. If everyone took it like coffee you'd change your tune.

ALL CHEATERS wrote:

I would be very careful regarding improvements with EPO especially in '90 without possible detection.

Claiming that 13:10 runner can't be 12:40 runner...

I personally know women runner in 800m which improve 6s - after test was available not during '90 and she take a juice just like that without scientific control or super knowledgeable doctor, so translate this to 5000m and you get?

Now, Jemima Sumgong, Olympic marathon winner and banned for EPO improved how much 6-7 min? Translate that on 5000m and during '90 without any possibility to be tested positive.

With a good doctor, Ferrari? you can improve even more, just my opinion.

+1

This is where the high-responder concept comes in, along with well-dailed in programs and the synergistic effects of 02-vector doping with androgens and/or HGH.

Remember Gamze Bulut of Turkey? 17 sec improvement in 13 short months from her previous PB of 4:18.23 (July/2011) to 4:01.18 ran in the London semi's (Aug/2012)...an amazing ~6% improvement in about a year. A Similar percentage improvement was also noted in her steeplechase time. Btw, she went on to take silver in the final along with her teammate Apkin who took the gold. Both were sanctioned for ABP hematological anomalies and Bulut's time has been flushed from the records.

Was Bulut using androgens or HGH with 02-vector doping? Don't know since she didn't test positive for any roids and the steroid module of the ABP wasn't in effect yet (not until 2014). Nonetheless, she went full-throttle 02 improving ~6% in 1 year and going from an unknown to an Olympic silver medalist. ?

rekrunner wrote:

As a gesture of solidarity, I think it's time for me to take an EPO myth-busting timeout.

I don't see anyone able to constructively contribute more on this topic.

I won't guarantee for how long, and I reserve the right to defend myself from personal or character attacks, or correcting blatant mischaracterizations of things I said.

If someone has a genuine question about some aspect of what I said, and addresses it properly to "rekrunner", I may respond.

Doping is a complex of practices.

Like in cyclism, they used EPO but also GH and other, maybe EPO has not a direct single effect but it's used in combination.

If doctors used (or use) it on athletes, probably there is a reason why.

Sport performance is a result of an increase of power in legs in connection with recovery capacity from hard training. And the various substances used (changed over time), have their function.

this one is pretty tame casual lol.....i know why lots of mine get deleted. cause gary thinks he is being sly and if he deletes my comments no one will know that he is gary lough...paulas husband.

his excuse that he knows sooooo much about her comes from "public sources" is laughable.

gary you lies are so numerous! constantly claiming you have nothing to do with deleting, then instantly mock casual...dur its no secret YOU do the deleting. next one is you JUST said you will retire from this thread for a while.....nope you cant do that can you? no cause you are addicted to this POWER you have, the power to MOD. its pathetic

dear BROJOS.....i ask this....will you please EITHER DELETE this thread completely OR....stop allowing gary to butcher this thing hourly...its annoying

Interesting reading from the poster regarding East Germany doping program:

"At present anabolic steroids are applied in all Olympic sporting events, with the exception of sailing and gymnastics

(female) . . . and by all national teams. The application takes place according to approved basic plans, in which special

situations of individual athletes are also considered. The positive value of anabolic steroids for the development of a top performance is undoubted. Here are a few examples. . .

Performances could be improved with the support of these drugs within four years as follows:

- Shot-put (men) 2.5± 4 m;

- Shot-put (women) 4.5±5 m;

- Discus throw (men) 10 ±12 m;

- Discus throw (women) 11±20 m;

- Hammer throw 6 ±10 m;

- Javelin throw (women) 8 ±15m;

- 400 m (women) 4 ±5 sec;

- 800 m (women) 5±10 sec;

- 1500 m (women) 7±10 sec. . .

Remarkable rates of increase in performances were also noted in the swimming events of women....

From our experiences made so far it can be concluded that women have the greatest advantage from treatments with anabolic hormones with respect to their performance in sports....

Especially high is the performance-supporting effect following the first administration of anabolic hormones, especially with junior athletes."

Comes in mind Marion Jones who avoided doping control in age 16... so the more I read the less I believe in "genetic outliers" and more and more in plain and simple LIERS.

I know this is about EPO not steroids but on 1500m 7-10s is interesting.

Now since post is deleted regarding Icarus movie:

Before starting doping program Brian Fogel went to test him self and he was able to produce 250 W/kg of power, after ONLY 5 months of program he was able to produce 349 W/Kg.

Just to repeat THE FACTS since this is constantly deleted.

Also this:

Words of Don Catlin (founder of UCLA Olympic lab and guy that run that lab for 25 years and tested Lance Armstrong around 50 times) in 06:12 min in the movie he stated:

"They are all doping, every one of them. Unfortunately, the drugs work". He didn't mean only cyclist but all elite athletes.

But EPO is not working

sorry to tell you buddy but FACTS and data that hurts garys stance will be removed. also this will be removed as well, 1) because i am exposing him yet again that he is in fact Gary Lough, and 2) you have facts and data that show that EPO and PEDs work.

again i write this even though gary will erase it from LR....he needs the world to believe that EPO and PEDs dont work, so when the blood results of his wife are finally forced out to the public, no one will care if he can convince them that EPO and PEDs dont work, and she was just a super duper hard worker and training that hard at altitude is what PEDs promise to be able to do but its all a lie. only prob with this mentality to save his wifes legacy is what do you do about the east germans and soviets of the 70s and 80s? what do you do about ben johnson? what do you about the athletes who have been busted 90's till now?

well he claims "ban them to the fullest extent" but that makes no sense if he is pushing so hard to PROVE that EPO and PEDs dont work. trying to save his wife and ruin the sport even worse...i guess only a brit can be this arrogant/ignorant