Thank you that makes sense!
Thank you that makes sense!
I did 3x1600 yesterday at 9 pm with 400m jog (7:32, 7:27, 7:23) and they felt a little bit above tempo pace but not 5k pace. I'm 35 and feeling like I won't recover my HS speed. I was never fast in HS either--64 was my best 400m, but I'd love to even get down to 80 and be able to run those consistently.
LRP wrote:
Finally, my base level is extremely low. I was the slowest person in a "cooper test" (12 min all-out on track), doing 5.25 laps as 17-year old. When I started running, I was running 1k/500m walk with 12 min miles for the 1k. My first timed 5k after some training was 32 minutes at 200 HR. If your base level is so low, and you improve it significantly, you also need to expect it to drop significantly after 2 weeks off. Some runners can run a 40 min 10k based off no training according to my coach (which for me is hard to believe, but if he says so..), so obviously they can take 2 weeks off and still be fast, but someone like me wouldn't be.
3) Never said I'm talented. My progression is entirely based on the effectiveness of Tinman training on me. I wasn't able to break 20:30 in a 5k before I got a coach who prescribes training that's very close to Tinman. My own training was just terrible and ineffective, I did everything wrong that could be done wrong. Since I follow my coach and Tinman, I progressed constantly and now hope to break 16 next month.
jecht:
That gives me hope. I ran a 5k in 18:33 in 2008 but generally quit from 2002 (end of HS track) until 2017 (first half marathon, Columbus) and walked 1-2 miles a day. I got in shape fast and ran 1:45. I never really did full 5k training on a structured plan. When I did the 2008 5k I ran 25-33 mpw with a high of 36, but that was one (1) 9-mile run. Nothing more.
To go from 32 min and the 1k run/500m walk to sub-17 5k is damned impressive.
One thing I've learned in MP training is to let MP pace come naturally, not goal pace. My goal pace is 7:35 and my Boston dream goal pace to hit the standard is 7:03. But I learned real quick to run naturally and not force the 7:03 to make the standard right away.
wolde wrote:
LYDIARD TRAINING SYSTEM or Periodization is the way to go.
It is not neccesary to run intervals every week of the year, you need 8-12 week of base work, 4-6 weeks of intervals or races (the best option, you learn racing by racing) and taper 7-14 days. This will work for everyone, 40 years ago and 40 years later.
I improved from 35´ to 32:... with 2 periodization cycles. Give it a try and enjoy!
Tinman training is actually based on Lydiard's principles - he was his main inspiration to become a coach.
However, even in the so called "base phase", Lydiard included faster running in the form of a weekly 10 mile tempo at a good pace and a weekly long run. Guess what? Tinman has his "Tinman Tempo" and a long run, the only difference being that for most athletes, Tinman Tempo is 5-6 miles and long run is 90 minutes instead of the 10 mile tempo and 120-150 minute long runs of Lydiard's "marathon conditioning phase".
Similarly, Lydiard recommended 100 mpw but again, this recommendation was based on elites that can cover 100 mpw in 10 hours. For most of us, 70-75 mpw would be similar duration-wise to an elite doing 100 mpw, since we don't run 6 minute miles on our easy runs.
Lydiard works extremely well, but Tinman has similar philosophies it's just that people for some reason think he only does CV and tempos 52 weeks of the year which is wrong. It is the staple of his system, like Lydiard's "base phase" and weekly 10 mile tempo, but there are also periods of harder intervals in Tinman training as well as a peaking phase (actually, that's what I'm doing in these 6 weeks).
jecht wrote:
One thing I've learned in MP training is to let MP pace come naturally, not goal pace. My goal pace is 7:35 and my Boston dream goal pace to hit the standard is 7:03. But I learned real quick to run naturally and not force the 7:03 to make the standard right away.
This is exactly why Brogan Austin, one of the best US marathoners and coached by Tinman once said "I've done zero running at goal MP under Tinman". What he wanted to say was that he didn't have an exact goal MP pace he would need to hit. Many of his and Reed Fischer's workouts included plenty of work around marathon-paced efforts, the difference is that they don't set an arbitrary goal to shoot for but train at the best pace for the current day fitness, which might be slightly slower than what the marathon will end up being run.
jecht wrote:
To go from 32 min and the 1k run/500m walk to sub-17 5k is damned impressive.
I don't think it is. I think anyone would be that slow/unfit if he goes completely sedentary like I did (professional computer gamer, wouldn't ever leave the house so 0 movement a day and only needed 1200 calories and 1l water a day).
When I was active in middle school (2-3 hours of sports classes in school), I was already one of the fastest runners in the school. I was top 3 in 60m dash, unbeatable during the warm-up (1-2 laps, around 400-800m) and still solid in longer distances (around 10:30-11 minutes for 2.5k). That was without any running training, just doing 2-3 hours of sports a week, often soccer, dodgeball, etc. In dodgeball I was also last man standing and dragged out games significantly.
My "cooper-test", which is 12 minutes around a track doing as many laps as you can, was around 6-7 laps during that time. Just two years later, after I went to HS where we didn't have a sports class, I was down to 5.25 (2100m in 12 minutes), getting lapped by people I used to destroy two years earlier. Few more years later and I couldn't run more than 5 minutes at 12-min/mile pace (~7-8min/k pace). I hated stairs during that time, as I would get out of breath where any normal person would still be able to talk. I was also afraid to go swimming with work colleagues, as one 25m length would leave me terribly exhausted.
However, I was still able to run in the low 60s for 400m despite my terrible aerobic fitness and around 25s 200m. But ending my slow jogs with a sprint finish on downhill concrete got my shins chronically injured and I had to cross-train for 5 years with just walking to prepare myself for running, which I was finally able to start again in late 2017.
Also, it didn't take me long to surpass people once I started training. Every 2-3 weeks I moved up in training groups. Just a few months after training I was faster than people who have been marathon training for years. They couldn't believe it and thought I've been running my whole life, when reality is my fitness was just artificially weak due to being completely sedentary for so many years.
The problem is that anaerobic threhsold pace (1 hour race pace) and faster intervals are hard and they should be done with a good planification. Don't compare yourself with Brogan, he is an elite runner and he has been injured 3 months, maybe too many hard training? I think so...
5-6 weeks fast training are enough for most people, but of course, is difdicult to believe in the interval era, we want results FAST and NOW. Running is for patience people and the goal should be to be the best we can in 2,3,4 or 5 years. Enjoy the journey, enjoy base training and results will come?!
wolde wrote:
The problem is that anaerobic threhsold pace (1 hour race pace) and faster intervals are hard and they should be done with a good planification. Don't compare yourself with Brogan, he is an elite runner and he has been injured 3 months, maybe too many hard training? I think so...
5-6 weeks fast training are enough for most people, but of course, is difdicult to believe in the interval era, we want results FAST and NOW. Running is for patience people and the goal should be to be the best we can in 2,3,4 or 5 years. Enjoy the journey, enjoy base training and results will come?!
Done a smart way they are not hard at all.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
jecht wrote:
One thing I've learned in MP training is to let MP pace come naturally, not goal pace. My goal pace is 7:35 and my Boston dream goal pace to hit the standard is 7:03. But I learned real quick to run naturally and not force the 7:03 to make the standard right away.
This is exactly why Brogan Austin, one of the best US marathoners and coached by Tinman once said "I've done zero running at goal MP under Tinman". What he wanted to say was that he didn't have an exact goal MP pace he would need to hit. Many of his and Reed Fischer's workouts included plenty of work around marathon-paced efforts, the difference is that they don't set an arbitrary goal to shoot for but train at the best pace for the current day fitness, which might be slightly slower than what the marathon will end up being run.
Aren't you eager to test something new which turned out much better than Tinman? JS seems to have found a system very close to perfection and on just low mileage. Less training time needed and still reaching your optimum.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
marshal wrote:
LateRunnerPhil, very impressive progression and thanks for the detailed description. I will use this information to updated my training.
I can share my experience as well. Started running in mid 20's and followed Daniels plan. Got down from 22:xx to 16:34 for 5k. Then I stalled for three or so years due to health issues. Now for the past year or so I'm mixing Daniels with Tinman and have PRed in HM again after four year pause (ran 75:xx).
What is bugging me is - how do you execute CV workouts. When I compare your CV paces to mine it seems you are running 1000 repeats a bit faster (3:25/km yours vs 3:28/km mine). Usually I feel wasted after CV workout for two days afterwards and I do max of 5x1000 (with 90 sec recovery @ 6:20/mile pace). I think my problem is a bit too fast recovery running (I borrowed that from Daniels cruise intervals). The question is - how do you set up recovery? Do you walk, jog or run? How fast?
My recovery jogs are nothing spectacular. Usually between 10:00/mi to 11:30/mi. Just slow enough so I feel fresh again for the next rep. This has to do with muscle fiber distribution - I'm very FT-based, so my recovery jogs are very slow. A slow-twitch monster can probably do 8:00/mi and recover just fine.
Similar thing can be seen in alternation workouts (like 5x(1k at 10k, 1k at 10k+30s/mi)). I despise these workouts, as I can never recover in them, whereas my ST friends love them and average incredible paces during such a workout.
Tinman recommends 200m jog during CV reps, so you can adjust the pace. On a hot day, or when you feel bad, you can go slower on the recovery jog let's say 90s whereas on a good day you can go in 70-75s and, the important part, in both versions you will still hit the appropriate CV pace.
If you run recovery during a CV workout at 6:20/mi pace, that's gotta be the reason you feel so dead, I'm usually just fine after CV workouts. What kills me are races!
Thanks, yesterday I tried out slowing down on recoveries and did CV workout of 5x1000 in 3:23-3:19 (with 90 sec recovery @ 7:20/mile pace) and it felt good. That said, can you please repost your training schedule (the one posted on Imgur doesn't show up anymore)?
Peak performance wrote:
Aren't you eager to test something new which turned out much better than Tinman? JS seems to have found a system very close to perfection and on just low mileage. Less training time needed and still reaching your optimum.
+ 1
John S. wrote:
Peak performance wrote:
Aren't you eager to test something new which turned out much better than Tinman? JS seems to have found a system very close to perfection and on just low mileage. Less training time needed and still reaching your optimum.
+ 1
It's hard to believe a grown up man is sitting here on LRC every day to promote his "breakthrough" training approach posting under dozen of random names and thinking no one notices this.
Come on Jan, we all have heard about your training approach but put the facts on the table. For me personally it's hard to believe you train any elite athlete.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
you are what you is wrote:
So why are you trying to be a distance runner?
Good question. When I started to jog in my mid-20s, I had no real goals. Just wanted to run so I don't have to take the elevator each time at work because I was so unfit. It took some time to find out where my strengths lie in comparison to other people. I thought everyone would be reasonably fast, like 50-55s 400m speed when I was running 5k's in the 17-19 min range. However I noticed that at the end of races, I would be significantly faster than anyone else, finishing in 2:30-2:40/k and closing huge gaps. I tend to get passed in the middle of races because I'm at my aerobic limit, which is quite low (but getting better). But I can shift up several gears in the last 400m or so where others only get a bit faster.
Now why am I still training Tinman? Because his system works for ALL distances. I'm improving in the 800m and even 400m with his CV sessions. In the beginning I was doing 1k VO2MAX reps in 4:10-4:20/k, even with decent speed that's not gonna let you run a decent 800m. Now after a year with Tinman training these would be at 2:55-3:00/k, so even if I didn't do a single session to improve my max sprint speed I would be much faster over 800m, and even 400m.
Tinman said his standard training can get someone to 97-98% of potential in the 800m. For the last few %, he said hard anaerobic sessions would be necessary as the 800m has a high anaerobic component compared to the mile or other longer races. I started training more consistently when I was 30 years old (early 2018), if you start running at that age you don't really get your 800m time down to like 1:45 anymore, even if you specifically train for it. But if my potential is 1:54 that I could reach with optimized 800m training for 5 years, I'd rather be doing Tinman training for 5-10k and run a 1:57 800m off that. That level would still be enough to compete in some master races later and I would be a solid distance runner across many distances.
No one in the real life cares about your 400m or 800m time. The average human got no idea what a 47s 400m or 1:48 800m is worth. But a sub 15 5k? A 2:30 marathon? Those are distances most people can identify with. Maybe I'll focus on the 800m one time and replace the Tinman Tempo with some speed work, but for now I wanna just progress as runner, get my 1k/CV pace/threshold down and keep doing what worked so far. No need to risk intense speed work yet that might cause injury, rather save it for later as an untouched stimulus for further improvement.
I wish you all the best and think that with all the effort and a new PB follows. But it's hard to stand how you market your training results as proof of the universally correct training of Tinman for all distances (!).
I think most people know how great a 47 / 400m or 1: 48 / 800m is. Of course there are people who think a 15: xx over 5k is better, but hardly anyone takes those people seriously.
If you really think your best distances 400/800 - then run! For many years, I have found that real talent always shows when someone achieves outstanding results on a track despite the low volume of training. Always confirmed. And if you think you can almost reach your potential with CV intervals, then run against people 400 or 800, who are talented, train little volume, but do speedwork.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
if my potential is 1:54 that I could reach with optimized 800m training for 5 years, I'd rather be doing Tinman training for 5-10k and run a 1:57 800m off that. That level would still be enough to compete in some master races later and I would be a solid distance runner across many distances.
No one in the real life cares about your 400m or 800m time. The average human got no idea what a 47s 400m or 1:48 800m is worth. But a sub 15 5k? A 2:30 marathon? Those are distances most people can identify with. Maybe I'll focus on the 800m one time and replace the Tinman Tempo with some speed work, but for now I wanna just progress as runner, get my 1k/CV pace/threshold down and keep doing what worked so far. No need to risk intense speed work yet that might cause injury, rather save it for later as an untouched stimulus for further improvement.
I think you should aim for a sub 4 1500 sub 2 800 and a fast 400.
qw wrote:
John S. wrote:
+ 1
It's hard to believe a grown up man is sitting here on LRC every day to promote his "breakthrough" training approach posting under dozen of random names and thinking no one notices this.
Come on Jan, we all have heard about your training approach but put the facts on the table. For me personally it's hard to believe you train any elite athlete.
You know of him ! Don't you think that's a part of his strategy?To get the whole world of running to know about his amazing running system?It's easy to check at Facebook that he really coach elite athletes and runners of all levels to perfection.
Week 3 Update
8/26 Monday
90 min (12.5 mile) fast finish long run over hilly trails, with average pace 7:30 and last 2 miles from 6:20 to 6:00.
8/27 Tuesday
5 miles in 7:30/mi pace and 6x20s strides
8/28 Wednesday
A Tinman-special for peaking.
Combo Workout - 3x1000 in 3:22-3:21-3:20 (CV, 200m rest each) & 3x1000 in 3:08-3:09-3:05 (VO2MAX, 600m rest each) & 4x200 in 33-31-30-28 (mile to 800m speed). Very hot and humid, took a longer break to rehydrate and cool-down after the CV and 2nd VO2MAX rep. Dry-heaved just at the end of the last 1k.
8/29 Thursday
6 mile recovery run over flat trails in 7:50/mi. Started very slow, got a bit better throughout.
8/30 Friday
8.5 mile easy run over hilly trails in 7:30/mi & 10x10s hill sprints. Felt super strong today, PR'ed on the long hill climb and it was easy to get my HR up (~150-160 during climb which is tempo/MP). Hill sprints were almost all-out and last one all-out and I was just flying up the hill.
8/31 Saturday
12 mile with a 6 mile Tinman Tempo in 6:10/mi & 6x30s hill sprints. Plan was to run at 5:55/mi but my legs and CNS were fatigued from yesterday. I felt good yesterday and hammered the easy run which negatively affected my tempo run. Legs just couldn't get going and I had much lower cadence than normal. At least I pushed through even though I considered quitting at times. Was also warm & humid despite running at night.
9/1 Sunday
PM: 5 mile recovery run over wet flat trails. Legs were completely dead today, and I felt glycogen depleted. Two days ago the hilly easy run (too fast uphill) with hill sprints and yesterday's Tinman Tempo & hill sprints killed my legs so today I just wanted to get some mileage in and blood flow going.
No cross-training, core or doubles this week. The higher intensity training keeps my glycogen stores quite low most days. It seems tho as running uses different glycogen than swimming and biking, so I will do a little bit of biking in the next few weeks, my swimming pool is closed now for 3 weeks. Also need to increase my carb intake and make sure I'm adequately fueled for all days. Next week my hardest workout is planned, a 3xMile starting at just slower than 5k, faster than 5k, and 3k pace for the last one. Tinman assigned this to Drew Hunter before he won FL South Regional (his splits 4:42-4:30-4:13)
Now is when you find out if you are bullet-proof I guess!
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
8/28 Wednesday
A Tinman-special for peaking.
Combo Workout - 3x1000 in 3:22-3:21-3:20 (CV, 200m rest each) & 3x1000 in 3:08-3:09-3:05 (VO2MAX, 600m rest each) & 4x200 in 33-31-30-28 (mile to 800m speed). Very hot and humid, took a longer break to rehydrate and cool-down after the CV and 2nd VO2MAX rep. Dry-heaved just at the end of the last 1k.
Is this really a Tinman special? I don't recall seeing 3x1000@VO2max in any of his public writing -- especially not layered onto a combo workout like that one. I ran 4x1000 going from CV down to V02max recently -- accidentally. It felt tolerable, but I don't think I would have wanted to run another 2000 meters at VO2max pace. It surprises me to see so much VO2max volume from him. If you do have a source, can you share?
Thanks!
webby wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
8/28 Wednesday
A Tinman-special for peaking.
Combo Workout - 3x1000 in 3:22-3:21-3:20 (CV, 200m rest each) & 3x1000 in 3:08-3:09-3:05 (VO2MAX, 600m rest each) & 4x200 in 33-31-30-28 (mile to 800m speed). Very hot and humid, took a longer break to rehydrate and cool-down after the CV and 2nd VO2MAX rep. Dry-heaved just at the end of the last 1k.
Is this really a Tinman special? I don't recall seeing 3x1000@VO2max in any of his public writing -- especially not layered onto a combo workout like that one. I ran 4x1000 going from CV down to V02max recently -- accidentally. It felt tolerable, but I don't think I would have wanted to run another 2000 meters at VO2max pace. It surprises me to see so much VO2max volume from him. If you do have a source, can you share?
Thanks!
5th post from top.
He prescribed this for a HS XC team 4-weeks before peaking. When asked why not do his usual CV+time trial stuff, he said 4 weeks is a bit too early. I have CV+time-trials in the last two weeks.
If you aren't ready to do VO2MAX work after the CV, maybe you ran the CV too fast. I definitely felt the VO2MAX pace, but I have so much stamina built from the last 2-3 months of CV training that I can handle them. Also 6x1000 in 3:20-3:17-3:14-3:11-3:08-3:05 is another workout that Tinman loves to prescribe for peaking (when CV is 3:20), if you did something close to that it's also a nice workout if done few weeks before a race. Had I had one more week to prepare I would have also done that.