Barraza goes down HARD in steeple ++ Where do you rank it in terms of agonizing defeats?

Are people really downing the winner now? Saying he didn't deserve winning for successfully clearing the barriers in a race which is defined by said barriers?

So bizarre.

Icusgebw wrote:

(...) I think him missing that hurdle was a sign of fatigue more than anything. I think he was gonna get caught either way. Definitely wouldn't have gotten 10th but I don't think he had enough in the tank to finish the race in first.

100 %. Still the right strategy, he gave it a shot and showed balls.

running commenter wrote:

Have you actually seen him hurdle? He's great at it. Definitely a steepler.

I'll address your responses one by one.

Hurdle form does not make someone a steepler. I've had a few runners who had impeccable form who could not handle 3,000 meters worth of barriers. Also, take a look at the Africans. Their form is typically atrocious, yet they make up the pantheon of steeplechasing.

A natural steeplechaser may have good hurdling form, or they may not. What makes them a natural is that their bodies are strong and they have the right combination of aerobic/anaerobic ability to handle 35 (36 inch) barriers over the course of 3,000 meters.

I would also like to remind you that I said he was not a "natural" steeplechaser. That doesn't mean he's not a very good one, because he obviously is a very good one.

letsrun is insane wrote:

His PR is 8:32 for the steeple. So your whole argument is invalid.

He had the best PR and the best 5k PR of the field. Though he's run a fast mile, he is a 5k/10k type. He ran the 10k before he ran the steeple. He got out kicked in the prelims and made the finals only on time.

Going for it was the right call. He would have likely won, and even if he didn't, he'd end up 2nd or at worst 3rd.

Houston needed to be near perfect to win a championship.

Most of you all are showing how clueless you are about the sport.

You did not read the last paragraph of my post. You just saw that I had written 8:40 for his steeple PR and disregarded everything I had to say after that. Thank you for correcting me on his PR though. I simply gleaned the information I had from his TFRRS page.

If I've read correctly, that 8:32 was set during a redshirt season. If that is the case those are typically optimal conditions. The athlete does not have to be concerned with the wear and tear of the NCAA season (nor peaking for championship races) and can chase fast times. He has yet to replicate that time, nor come within 6 seconds, for whatever reason. This is important because that means that time is an outlier at this point in his career and outliers should not be heavily considered as a strong point of reference when determining the athlete's abilities during a championship race (I know this because I've had to do this multiple times).

Because you didn't read my last paragraph, you failed to realize that I'm basically in agreement with you. I said I know next-to-nothing about Brian and, though I don't remember exactly how I phrased it, implied that I think Brian did an incredible job, is an incredible runner and has incredible coaches.

malmo wrote:

Jimjamesrunner wrote:

A guy with 13:38-3:58 ability should be able to run 8:35-8:38. Brian's PR is 8:40. He's just not a natural steeplechaser (I know someone who had a 5k PR of 15:00 and a 1500 PR of 3:55 who soloed 8:50 in the steeple. That's a natural steeplechaser).

.

A guy with 13:38/3:58 stats should be able to run sub 8:20.

Anthony Famiglietti Donn Cabral Kyle Alcorn

5000 13:11 13:22 13:32

3k steeple 8:17 8:13 8:20

1 mile/1500 3:55/3:35 4:00/3:40 4:00/3:40

I agree with you if the runner's strongest event is the steeple. But 'should' is the key word. I looked up the stats of the first 3 American steeplers that came to my mind (I excluded Jager, because he's an obvious outlier). This is not a scientific sample, but it proves my point.

Famiglietti was an Olympic steepler, ran 13:11/3:35 and cracked 8:20 by 3 seconds.

Donn Cabral is an Olympic steepler, has run 13:22/3:40 and has cracked 8:20 by 7 seconds.

Kyle Alcorn was an Olympic steepler, ran 13:32/3:40 and did not break 8:20.

These three runners' statistics, accolades (they were Olympic-caliber steeplers) and a reasonable understanding of physiology proves that it takes more than PRs of 13:38/3:58 to crack 8:20, unless you are an extraordinary steepler.

However, I do respect your knowledge of the subject and would love to hear about your training methodology for steeplechasing.

Will he run post collegiately?

What group?

Or stay with Magness?

Does someone like this get any money at all or just gear and some travel?

One final post for clarification of my stance on Brian Barraza's performance yesterday, the Houston coaching staff and the University of Houston's team as a whole:

Brian Barraza is a fantastic runner. He has a lot of talent and a lot of heart. The effort he put forth yesterday was inspiring. Honestly, I think his figurative 'balls' might've been what tripped him up, because they are enormous.

Houston's coaching staff is amazing. Collectively, they must have one of the most comprehensive and scientifically sound knowledge bases of the sport in the NCAA.

University of Houston's team is something else. The sprint squad is ridiculous. Their Workout Wednesdays on FloTrack are very enjoyable. You should definitely check them out.

For all of those who question my understanding of the sport, feel free to email me. I'd be more than happy to engage in discourse via email or even over the phone. I don't post using my real name on here because I'm not big on making my personal information public.

It seems like his best option would be to stay with Magness, if possible. I can't imagine he could find a better coach anywhere else. The 'better' coaches in the world are surreptitious proponents of PED use.

Jimjamesrunner wrote:

malmo wrote:

A guy with 13:38/3:58 stats should be able to run sub 8:20.

Anthony Famiglietti Donn Cabral Kyle Alcorn

5000 13:11 13:22 13:32

3k steeple 8:17 8:13 8:20

1 mile/1500 3:55/3:35 4:00/3:40 4:00/3:40

I agree with you if the runner's strongest event is the steeple. But 'should' is the key word. I looked up the stats of the first 3 American steeplers that came to my mind (I excluded Jager, because he's an obvious outlier). This is not a scientific sample, but it proves my point.

Famiglietti was an Olympic steepler, ran 13:11/3:35 and cracked 8:20 by 3 seconds.

Donn Cabral is an Olympic steepler, has run 13:22/3:40 and has cracked 8:20 by 7 seconds.

Kyle Alcorn was an Olympic steepler, ran 13:32/3:40 and did not break 8:20.

These three runners' statistics, accolades (they were Olympic-caliber steeplers) and a reasonable understanding of physiology proves that it takes more than PRs of 13:38/3:58 to crack 8:20, unless you are an extraordinary steepler.

.

Cherry picking three athletes who have much better PRs than 13:38/3:58 = sub 8:20 doesn't prove your point at all. I really don't think you are very familiar with physiology either.

Why the conspicuous omission of Lincoln, Marsh, Croghan, Diemer, Huling, Dobert, Slattery, Huff, Lopez, Nohilly, Nelson, Bruce, Leslie, Brown, Gary, Gerber, Olinger and Cooper?

In this debate, have you all looked at Barraza’s steeple record?

His PR comes from a race he won by 25 seconds. This year his steeples were:

8:42 in a race won by 25sec at Rice

8:48 conference tactical win over Rotich

8:41 west regional

8:40 NCAA prelim

In other words. He never went for it until nationals.

So his PR is kind of irrivelent. He hasn’t been in a crazy fast race.

J Fred Duckett Twilight Meet Apr 22, 2017

3000S 8:32.48 1st (F)

malmo wrote:

another runner wrote:

You're a tool.

I agree.

I love these tough guys who have all the answers from bold anonymity their mommas basement. Run too slow they have no balls. Run exactly as they should abd fail, they're stupid.

Ba razza is my kind of runner. All balls no talk.

As opposed to going for it ....and STILL losing spectacularly. Stop attacking the people who have valid criticisms of his and Steve's tactics is just stupid and your childish insults are even worse.

Clearly, they didn't work out. Going for it is great, but we don't give the Super Bowl trophy to the best record after 8 weeks, We don't give the NY marathon title to the runner leading at 20 miles.

you're kind of runner is a loser of the race 99 times out of 100.

Texas HS Coach wrote:

Are people really downing the winner now? Saying he didn't deserve winning for successfully clearing the barriers in a race which is defined by said barriers?

So bizarre.

Positive splitting a steeplechase is a bad idea. Always.

Barraza had the fastest mile and steeplechase PR in the field by a lot. He should have been able to sit and kick effectively, but for some reason they didn't. Magness did not prepare him well, plain and simple.

Instead, he goes out on pace to run 20 seconds faster than he had all year (and 12 second PR pace) which is a MASSIVE risk. It goes beyond "courageous" and falls into the "foolish" category. And that ultimately is on Magness.

Sport commentating often comes down to narratives. I think a lot of people on this thread have a narrative about what happened in the race based on comments and stories they have read and their preconcieved notions about optimal pacing/steeplechase racing and didn't actually WATCH THE RACE OR THE FALL.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/36325030/educate-yourself-before-you-wreck-yourself.jpg

Get real now wrote:

Positive splitting a steeplechase is a bad idea. Always.

Barraza had the fastest mile and steeplechase PR in the field by a lot. He should have been able to sit and kick effectively, but for some reason they didn't. Magness did not prepare him well, plain and simple.

Instead, he goes out on pace to run 20 seconds faster than he had all year (and 12 second PR pace) which is a MASSIVE risk. It goes beyond "courageous" and falls into the "foolish" category. And that ultimately is on Magness.

Get real now wrote:

Positive splitting a steeplechase is a bad idea. Always.

In the world record steeplechase (which is 7:53.63 just so you know) Shaheen went through 1k on 7:48.39 pace. His previous PR at the time he ran that was 7:57.

no YOURE hilarious wrote:

Get real now wrote:

Positive splitting a steeplechase is a bad idea. Always.

In the world record steeplechase (which is 7:53.63 just so you know) Shaheen went through 1k on 7:48.39 pace. His previous PR at the time he ran that was 7:57.

Where did you get that split from? What was his 1500 split?

Also, it's funny that you think that record is clean.

wejo wrote:

It’s egun wrote:

I am so sorry to say this, but that was the most embarrassing thing I’ve ever seen in the steeple.

Three second lead, stutter steps a hurdle and face plants...

Ridiculous.

Exhibited absolutely NO athletic ability, felt sorry for himself, and jogged walked it in...

Pathetic.

Oh and yes, I have run as fast as him, and CAN comment.

Pathetic exhibition of steeple.

I could care less if you've run as fast as him but if you'r proud of your comment how about using your name?

He didn't jog it in. He could have had a concussion as hard as he fell. His teams chances likely went down the tubes. Dude absolutely went for it. Greatness doesn't always come from it, but I gained a ton of respect for the kid.

Wejo, it's "I couldn't care less"............

Commentators Stones and O'brien said he was wavering half a lap earlier and were concerned about his hurdling the last few barriers. Those guys are astute.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."