Jim Ryun...getting it off my chest

1966 Commonwealth Games

1 Mile

Kip Keino (KEN) 03:55

Alan Simpson (ENG) 03:57

Ian Studd (NZL) 03:59

3 Miles

Kip Keino (KEN) 12:57

Ron Clarke (AUS) 12:59

Allan Rushmer (ENG) 13:09

6 Miles

Naftali Temu (KEN) 27:14

Ron Clarke (AUS) 27:39

Jim Alder (SCO) 28:15

Marathon

Jim Alder (SCO) 2:22:08

Bill Adcocks (ENG) 2:22:13

Mike Ryan (NZL) 2:27:59

From Slowtwitch 6/4/01 (http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/longrun/webb.html)

A week ago Alan Webb, 18 of Reston, Virginia broke a high school track record that many people thought might stand forever. Back in 1965, Jim Ryun of East High in Wichita, Kansas beat the world's best miler, Peter Snell of New Zealand, to set the American high school record of 3:55.3 in San Diego. Webb broke that imposing record at the Prefontaine Classic in Eugene, by running 3:53.43 in a race won by today's best miler, Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco.

A lot has been said about that tremendous run and about Webb. He has great talent. He is physically developed for a high school senior. He combines speed (48 second 400 meter) with endurance (second at the national high school 5000 meter cross country to another high school phenom), much like Ryun. Webb has trained hard, but nowhere near the level of Ryun in terms of volume. Webb ran a very intelligent race, staying well within his ability until the last lap, when he blazed 55 seconds for the final 400 meters, passing many world class milers to finish 5th. Webb may be the best American miler right now.

Ryun was similarly a supreme talent -- many consider him to be the most talented of all the great milers, from Bannister, to Elliot, to Coe, to Aouita, to Morceli and El Guerrouj. He trained incredibly hard in high school, once doing 40 times 400 meters in 69 seconds. He made meaningless the term "prep" star since he was preparing for no future, but giving everything in his high school present. He made an Olympic team between his junior and senior year in high school. Combining that talent with that hard work, he put up a record that seemed unapproachable.

There is a gnawing belief among cognoscente of the mile, at least here in the U.S., that if Ryun had been well-coached he could have run 3:45 for the mile -- even without the "rabbits" and high tech shoes and tracks of today -- and dominated the sport for over a decade. Instead he had a career that mixed brilliance with major disappointments. He set the world record in 1966 with a 3:51.3 on a dirt track in Berkeley, breaking Michel Jazy's short-lived record by two and half seconds. He was 19 years old. The next year, he improved that record to 3:51.1. He also set records for the 1500 meters and the half-mile. In 1968, he won a silver medal in Mexico City's high altitude behind Kenyan, Kip Keino. After that "disappointment", Ryun had only occasional success mixed with heartbreaks. He stepped off the track at the 1969 nationals, took a year and half off, came back for the 1972 Olympics and looked good but tripped in the 1500 meter heats and did not make the final, and then spent a few years trying to help start the ITA professional track circuit until he finally retired from the sport at age 28. It is clear, though, that his career peaked at age 20 in 1967.

That meteoric type of career is common among high school standouts. In fact, one can peruse the list of great American high school runners (sub-4:10 milers and sub 9-minute two-milers) and see many lifetime bests. And for every one of those talented runners who became national collegiate contenders (let alone world-class), there are several who never came close to achieving the kind of success they had in high school.

Ryun was the last American to be the best miler in the world. That is 34 years in the wilderness. Steve Scott, in the early and mid-1980s challenged the best in the world and set the still standing American record of 3:47.69. The U.S. has not had a serious Olympic medal contender in the 1500 meter since.

So every time a high school senior goes under 4:10 for the mile, the American track community asks, is this the new Jim Ryun, the one who will lead American milers back to prominence? (And this is ironic since Ryun never took to the celebrity or pressure of being a running hero, and likely cringes at this annual rite of spring.)

Is Alan Webb, who chased a ghost and caught him, the answer to the question? There is the problem: I don’t like the question. And I would not want Jim Ryun's mostly unhappy career to be the model that top young runners follow.

I much prefer that Alan Webb be his own runner, pursue his dreams, and let us appreciate him for what he is, not what we hope him to be. And despite his auspicious introduction as an American distance force, and despite the fact that he has left plenty of room to add mileage to his training regime, it will be an upset, an accomplishment going against the odds, if Webb is the top American miler in three or five years (and let's not even guess at the likelihood of an American record or Olympic medal). But we can gaze upon a 3:53 high school mile --- and be amazed.

What you object to is what made Ryan the champion he was.

As the ultimate competitor, it still bothers him that he wasn't better.

Of course you cannot understand him.

That, my friend, is the difference between a champion and another runner such as yourself.

McClenan,

Good message and sorry to see it was removed.

It would be nice if this message board had private messages.

Anyway, I hope the A.T. don't get me for daring to think for myself and express it.

I totally agree! In contrast to the "great" milers of the 80's to the present, I don't recall reading that Ryun requested rabbits to lead for the first half of the race. How can anyone suggest that he wasn't a racer and competitor? I am too young to actually have witnessed any of his races but when I first started running in the late 70's he was my inspiration. Just because he was perhaps the greatest mile talent ever and far ahead of most of his rivals shouldn't take away from the fact that he was a racer first. He shouldn't be punished for being so far advanced of most of his contemporaries.

it shocks me that after 5 pages of a thread, someone still spells the last name as, "ryan". i just don't get it.

In the above mentioned 40x400 workout, what was the rest?

in the book, it says.... 4 sets of 10 x 440y starting every 3 minutes, lap jog for set break.

averages:

first set 71

2nd set 69

3rd set 69

4th set 67

remember, this is for 440y

The 40 x 400 workout was endurance-volume oriented in design; not at all speed oriented for Jim Ryun. The rest breaks were on a "go-time" of 3 minutes. That, is, like swimming workouts, a 400m was run ever 3 minutes. This was classic of coach Bob Timmon's workouts because he was a swim coach with a good reputation, according to Jack Daniels who was a swim coach who competed against Bob's teams (Bob was in Kansas and Jack was in Oklahoma). The times run were not that fast for Jim. He had 46 second 400m speed yet he ran most of his reps 69-67 seconds (more than 20 seconds slower than his best 400 time. He had plenty of recovery time too. Jim also did high volume 800m workouts, some 9 miles worth at a pace, as Jack points out, Jim could have run for 9 miles. If you think about it, Jim who was running 2:20s per half, was doing LT training.

I concur (again ! ) with HRE. It was not only US kids who were inspired by Jim Ryun. Kiwi kids were fascinated by this High School kid who beat our greatest ever runner.

As I write this 40 years later I look at my bookshelf and see alongside the Bios of Snell, Walker and Halberg, That of Jim Ryun. When I got that book I cannot remember but it has been read many, many times.The dust cover is beaten to death !!. As for Rich Clarkson's photography : Awesome.

When Jim came to New Zealnd in 1971 (he was not in great shape) I lined up with all the other autograph hunters.

keep this thread going !!

Front page: Jim Ryun "defended" by his son... That Jim Ryun needs somebody to "defend" his running career is something that would only be possible in the alternate reality known as letsrun.com...

THis gets my vote as the contribution of the month. How true!

Old Tymer-

Couldn't have said it better myself. When I read that I thought, "Dad does not need defending. Anyone who takes the time to just glance at his career realizes how great the man was (and is)."

Big Swede-any crazy 200 workouts recently? New spikes? I am off to run the G-Town trail and hills tonight. Too bad you aren't here. We could relive a few workouts.

I think someone brought it up a few posts ago, but I have often wondered how great an 800m runner dad could have been had he focused just a bit more on it. One, he runs his 1:44 just hours after a 1:50 in the prelims. Two, he negative splits the race in a huge way. And three, often overlooked races are his 1:46 (beating Ralph Doubell and Tom Farrell) just after his 3:51.3 and the 1972 800m final at the Oly Trials. Dad ran 1:45 and change after not having run any 800s of note in years. Of course, his 24 high backstretch 200 beat him into 4th down the homestretch, but I have often wondered how he could pick up the 800 (seemingly on a whim) and run 1:45s at will (and to watch his prelim and semi at the Trials in the 800 is amazing-he ran from the front, kicked well and won both). I mean, even as a tune-up for the 72 Trials he ran a 5,000 (13:38 PR), not 800s.

Is your Dad relatively healthy? Does he still run/race regularly? Would he win in his age group in Congress?

j

"Couldn't have said it better myself. When I read that I thought, "Dad does not need defending. Anyone who takes the time to just glance at his career realizes how great the man was (and is)." "

Drew: The other thing that some don't seem to realize is that it is most definitely NOT a matter of what Ryun "could" have done or "might" have done in his career. What he actually DID is far, far more than enough to make him one of the all-time greats in the entire history of the sport. Sure there were hiccups and disappointments along the way, but that's what real life is about... His ACTUAL record is simply amazing.

drew- no running lately- count me out of any more of your hill workouts- the one behind timmons farm still has me knackered. on the side, you know super-ry is turning into a freaking machine? he's got great things ahead. email me when you get the chance.

psaltejohn wrote:

If WeJo ever writes a 'Guide to Good Thread Writing and Behavior,' this thread and Stick's contributions to it will have to be highlighted (and the goofball bashing Ryun and Lindgren to prove he can have his opinion will also be there as a foil).

I agree--this has been a very good thread. It has represented the best of what Letsrun.com threads can be.

At the same time, though, it has represented the worst: several posts have been deleted for their having "political" content, no matter how thoughtful or polite the postings were. In fact, many of the deleted postings were quite composed. A few posters had very reasonable disagreements with Congressman Ryan, and they were not vitriolic in the least. Even if they did disagree with Congressman's Ryan's positions, they stressed their admiration for his running career. They were much more polite and reasonable than I have often been.

I've enjoyed this thread a lot, but I thought that it was weakened by taking down bits about Congressman Ryan's politics. His life after running is an important part of his legacy, too.

I saw the TV interview and Jim Ryun gave a LOT of credit to Kip Keino...he said that Keino did not get the recognition he deserved for his record at high altitude. He had nothing but good things to say.

Jim Ryun, as Kip Keino was, was always a gentleman and really was a very modest, humble person. I had the privilege of working out with him at the Univ.of Portland in 1974 or so - thanks to Jim Grelle. He was a very gracious man. I also had the honor of working out with John Walker at UC Berkely (1981) and he also was a very gracious man - gave me attention because he wanted a fellow runner to benefit in anyway he could!

Jim Ryun could have run 3:45 or so. This much has been clear not only to Jim Ryun but also to about 30 or so national class and world class runners I have either known personally or worked out with - (Jim Grelle, Domingo Tibaduiza, Duncan Macdonald)over the years (so Jim's so-called opinion of himself is SHARED by everyone - I am sure Peter Snell could have run close to this as well!)...none of them would disagree with the statement that Ryun could run 3:45!

In addition, given the type of racing atmoshpere today (more runners, races, support etc.) this is certainly believable. El G. works exclusively as a RUNNER and does not have to worry about money - how much has he made compared with Ryun? Most of Ryun's races were in the U.S. - not on the European circuit as you have today! He was far to fast for anyone to really race him in his best days - so I doubt we saw the BEST Jim Ryun. The pressure to ALWAYS run a WR or sprint fast or beat 4 and the pressure to support a family must have been tremendous....why do you think PRE said "Those are MY American records"- because of the lack of support!

The Olympics at high altitude was certainly an unfair advantage to ALL sea level runners. Without attacks of mono - who knows! My belief is that Keino prepared for Ryun by trying 3 types of races against Jim: 1). Sprint with 300m to go - that failed. 2) Go out the first lap easy and hammer the final 1200 meters (Ryun blazed a 52 last lap on him!) 3) Go out the first lap hard and hammer the final 3 - Gold medal Olympics.

I believe his final 3 laps in his world record 1500 meters (3:33.3 against Keino) averaged 55 sec per lap and he hit something like 2:45 for 1200m - smoking Keino on the last lap. In Dusseldorf Germany, Jim Grelle related to me how Ryun just hammered everyone (Bodo Tummle, Jim G and H Norpoth) with a final 300m of under 37 and a last lap clocking (normal first turn of 100m of last lap, not sprinting )of between 49.2 and 50.2 winning by 4 seconds or about 32 yards over the best European kicker - Tummler! - with 300m to go.

Jim Ryun's physique was PERFECT for middle distance - BIG hip muscles - look at those high school pics - you can't train for THOSE muscles - it is genetics! El G has them, as well as Moricelli, Coe, Ovett, Walker etc....

In closing, Jim Ryun was certainly NOT a braggart at all! I think the questions he was asked were a bit leading and he just tried to answer honestly....

What runner DOESN'T think he could have run faster? My best 5k is only 14:01 with opening laps of 72 and 70 secs. I had not done a single track workout for over a year! I didn't know it at the time but that was my last (I ran 4) 5km - nature and time tooks its course but I am still not happy about it - just know I can no longer dream about it and do anything to improve since I am 51....so we all can think back on areas we could have improved...this doesn't make us self-centered or braggarts and anyone who met Jim would know that he was truly the King and the Gentlemen of Milers.

mike