Well, the 1500 is not the mile, so I guess he needs to run a fast mile. Breaking Alan Webb's record in the mile would do it.
Well, the 1500 is not the mile, so I guess he needs to run a fast mile. Breaking Alan Webb's record in the mile would do it.
breaking 3:50 would be a start. If he takes down the American records at 1500m and mile and wins a bunch of big races, then he'll be there.
Murphy is the guy to break webb's record.
He has all the tools except experience and a few years more training.
But, watch out, hes gonna be something huge
Centro is now the US GOAT at 1500. His gold puts him ahead of all others.
Now he needs records-1k-1500-mile-2k-3k-maybe 5k, def sub 13
TrackBot! Compare Asbel Kiprop vs Matthew Centrowitz
TrackBot! Compare Taoufik Makhloufi vs Matthew Centrowitz
TrackBot! Compare Ayanleh Souleiman vs Matthew Centrowitz
Hobbiud Kipjogher wrote:
Centro is now the US GOAT at 1500.
No.
Head-to-head record between Asbel Kiprop (left) and Matthew Centrowitz (right):
Areva Saint-Denis 2011-07-08: 1500 m: 3:33.04 (2) VS 3:34.69 (11)
WC Daegu 2011-09-03: 1500 m: 3:35.69 (1) VS 3:36.08 (3)
Pre Eugene OR 2012-06-02: One Mile: 3:49.40 (1) VS 3:57.44 (8)
OG London 2012-08-07: 1500 m: 3:43.83 (12) VS 3:35.17 (4)
VD Bruxelles 2012-09-07: 1500 m: 3:32.88 (5) VS 3:32.47 (4)
Pre Eugene OR 2013-06-01: One Mile: 3:49.53 (2) VS 3:51.79 (10)
Herc Monaco 2013-07-19: 1500 m: 3:27.72 (1) VS 3:33.58 (8)
WC Moskva 2013-08-18: 1500 m: 3:36.28 (1) VS 3:36.78 (2)
WK Zürich 2013-08-29: 1500 m: 3:33.78 (6) VS 3:36.70 (12)
Pre Eugene OR 2014-05-31: One Mile: 3:50.26 (7) VS 3:50.53 (8)
Herc Monaco 2014-07-18: 1500 m: 3:28.45 (2) VS 3:31.09 (9)
Sainsbury's Birmingham 2014-08-24: One Mile: 3:51.89 (1) VS 3:53.46 (9)
Pre Eugene OR 2015-05-30: One Mile: 3:51.25 (3) VS 3:51.20 (2)
Herc Monaco 2015-07-17: 1500 m: 3:26.69 (1) VS 3:30.40 (10)
Sainsbury's London 2015-07-25: One Mile: 3:54.87 (1) VS 3:55.03 (2)
WC Beijing 2015-08-30: 1500 m: 3:34.40 (1) VS 3:36.13 (8)
OG RÃo de Janeiro 2016-08-20: 1500 m: 3:50.87 (6) VS 3:50.00 (1)
Asbel "MF" Kiprop total wins: 13
Matthew "DEVASTATED" Centrowitz total wins: 4
Head-to-head record between Taoufik Makhloufi (left) and Matthew Centrowitz (right):
OG London 2012-08-07: 1500 m: 3:34.08 (1) VS 3:35.17 (4)
VD Bruxelles 2012-09-07: 1500 m: 3:33.42 (8) VS 3:32.47 (4)
Pre Eugene OR 2013-06-01: One Mile: 3:52.94 (11) VS 3:51.79 (10)
Pre Eugene OR 2014-05-31: One Mile: 3:52.16 (11) VS 3:50.53 (8)
Herc Monaco 2015-07-17: 1500 m: 3:28.75 (2) VS 3:30.40 (10)
WC Beijing 2015-08-30: 1500 m: 3:34.76 (4) VS 3:36.13 (8)
OG RÃo de Janeiro 2016-08-20: 1500 m: 3:50.11 (2) VS 3:50.00 (1)
Taoufik "DEVASTATED" Makhloufi total wins: 3
Matthew "MF" Centrowitz total wins: 4
Head-to-head record between Ayanleh Souleiman (left) and Matthew Centrowitz (right):
WC Istanbul 2012-03-10: 1500 m: 3:47.35 (5) VS 3:47.42 (7)
Pre Eugene OR 2012-06-02: One Mile: 3:50.21 (3) VS 3:57.44 (8)
XL-Galan Stockholm 2013-02-21: 1000 m: 2:17.05 (1) VS 2:19.56 (6)
Pre Eugene OR 2013-06-01: One Mile: 3:50.40 (4) VS 3:51.79 (10)
Areva Saint-Denis 2013-07-06: 1500 m: 3:32.55 (1) VS DNF (0)
Sainsbury's London 2013-07-27: One Mile: 3:50.07 (2) VS 3:58.75 (16)
WK Zürich 2013-08-29: 1500 m: 3:31.64 (2) VS 3:36.70 (12)
Pre Eugene OR 2014-05-31: One Mile: 3:47.32 (1) VS 3:50.53 (8)
Bislett Oslo 2014-06-11: One Mile: 3:49.49 (1) VS 3:52.23 (8)
Herc Monaco 2014-07-18: 1500 m: 3:29.58 (4) VS 3:31.09 (9)
Sainsbury's Birmingham 2014-08-24: One Mile: 3:52.07 (2) VS 3:53.46 (9)
Pre Eugene OR 2015-05-30: One Mile: 3:51.10 (1) VS 3:51.20 (2)
Sainsbury's London 2015-07-25: One Mile: 3:55.06 (3) VS 3:55.03 (2)
Bauhaus Stockholm 2015-07-30: 1500 m: 3:33.33 (1) VS 3:39.29 (11)
WCÂ Portland ORÂ 2016-03-20: 1500 m: 3:53.69Â (9) VS 3:44.22Â (1)
OG RÃo de Janeiro 2016-08-20: 1500 m: 3:50.29 (4) VS 3:50.00 (1)
Ayanleh "MF" Souleiman total wins: 13
Matthew "DEVASTATED" Centrowitz total wins: 3
TrackBot supports Nicolo Filippazzo:
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For GOAT he needs American record. I think that an Olympic gold when no one else has one plus the American record would be convincing.
I'd also like to see him on late night TV and in other media, promoting the sport and being a role model to the next generation.
Madmandoc wrote:
For GOAT he needs American record. I think that an Olympic gold when no one else has one plus the American record would be convincing.
I'd also like to see him on late night TV and in other media, promoting the sport and being a role model to the next generation.
American record is not enough. He needs to dominate the circuit for at least a year and win some big Diamond League's in fast races to surpass Ryun.
Here's the argument:
* you can not compare times across generations. Tracks were different. Shoes were different. Competition was different. Use or existence of rabbits was different.
* you can compare relative performance. How good were you compared to your peers.
* world records and world rankings are one way to do this
* championship record is another way to do this
Jim Ryun set several world records and was the number one ranked miler over a 2 year period.
Jim Ryun had limited championship races to run. It was in HS in '64 (but made the team). In '68 he was considered the #1 runner, but the games were at altitude and Kip Keino ran an out of this world performance (rightfully winning and getting the #1 ranking). In '72 Ryun was already on the decline, but, of course, he fell during the prelims and did not get a chance to get a medal (no protesting back then).
Centro has set not records and has never been considered first in the world (maybe this year will change that). Until this olympics all he had the Ryun did not was world championship medals. There were no world championships when Ryun ran.
You can agree or not, but that's what the Ryun is the best camp would say.
Since when are Kiprop, Makhloufi, and Souleiman American?
What was Scott's record against Coe, Webb's against Ramzi, etc.?
fortis wrote:
Since when are Kiprop, Makhloufi, and Souleiman American?
What was Scott's record against Coe, Webb's against Ramzi, etc.?
Others claimed Centro was the best American because he beat those non-Americans in an Olympic race. So, to be the best American Centro only requires comparison against other Americans. Results against any non-Americans must be removed for Centro and the Americans he is compared against. Sure that makes a lot of sense; American-style.
Webb4Life wrote:
What Alan Webb accomplished in July 2007 still remains better than what Matt Centrowitz has accomplished. He ended the Outdoor season ranked # 1 in the world in the 1,500 meters and Mile. 3:30.54 to win the IAAF Golden League meet in Paris on July 6, 2007. Then 3:46.91 to win a meet in Brasschaat, Belgium on July 21, 2007. He also posted the # 2 time in the world in the 800 meters with a 1:43.84. There is no way Matt Centrowitz would have beaten him during this period of time.
Centro did not go burning himself out chasing ARs and running pbs in July. Instead, he peaked in August for the biggest race of his life and delivered.
Webb peaked a month too early and had nothing left for WC. Who was smarter?
This has been a good thread. Here are my assorted thoughts that I recall having as I read through it all:
1. The 1500/mile are essentially the same event and have been always considered to be bundled together as one middle distance specialty, so even though technically the mile favors strengths slightly more and the 1500, speed, the two should not be considered separately in any way when discussing the legacy of 1500/mile performances. Thus, I totally disagree with any arguments like, "Well, he hasn't won any MILE races, so he can't be the greatest miler."
2. Centrowitz is certainly the greatest and most accomplished championship 1500/mile runner in American history, which goes a long way towards cementing him as the greatest 1500/mile guy in US history, but being the greatest championship runner isn't everything. It does remain an amazing accomplishment and something for which he should be praised highly and for a long, long time. Also, the fact that the final was slow does not in ANY WAY diminish his gold. Everyone knows championships are weird/slow, and he beat the best in the world, period, which is all championship finals are about.
3. In my mind, the two people he's really competing against are Ryun and Webb. Ryun was absolutely the greatest miler (I'm just going to say "miler" because it's easier to type than "1500m runner") of his time (more on that later), and Webb belongs in the conversation because he is the only mid-distance runner (or long distance runner, for that matter) in the last 30-40 years who can lay legitimate claim to being the best middle distance runner in the world for a period of time, even though that period of time was extremely brief (one season). The Olympic boycott really hurts Steve Scott in this conversation, as he was clearly among the world's best for a long time and if he had medaled or won gold then the conversation around him would be differently. Tragically, it just didn't happen, and we have to go from the data we have. It isn't fair, but it also isn't fair that Ryun and Webb got hurt and, no offense to their coaches/parents, undoubtedly weren't guided with the same incredible skill as Centrowitz who has gotten his dad's coaching as well as Salazar's for his whole life/career. To me, it's very hard to put Lagat in the conversation, and it has nothing to do with xenophobia or not considering him a "real American." I consider him a real American, but do we count the 3:27? Do we count the accomplishments during his time competing for Kenya? It's very bizarre to only count his accomplishments after he became a US citizen. In my opinion, we are comparing the accomplishments of men, and Lagat has been the same man his whole life, so to only count what he did while officially representing America doesn't feel right to me. If we count his whole career, then he is certainly in the conversation for #1 with his 3:26 and multiple Olympic medals barely losing to the fastest runners in history, but I choose not to bring him into the discussion. Cunningham was amazing but it's hard to compare running like 4:05 to today's era.
4. Argument for Ryun being #1: he was the El G of his era. I think some people fail to appreciate what a freak Jim Ryun was back then. He was closing 1500s in sub-50 on dirt tracks when the world was still just beginning to comprehend that sub-4 was possible. He set world records at age 19-21 that lasted for many years. He was completely dominant over his competition, and as was stated before, certainly would have won world championships and probably Olympic gold had it not been at altitude. It's true that 3:33 in poor conditions isn't the equivalent of like a 3:24, but it's definitely a lot better than 3:33 is now. What is it worth? Sub-3:30 for sure. I mean, I watched one of his WR races and the pacing was terrible and he never saw another runner the entire race. Ryun was in uncharted territory. He was exploring new frontiers of what was possible. With today's competition and technology, it's no telling what kind of times he would have put up. Unfortunately, there's no way to know, but the fact he ran times that are still pretty competitive today in the mid-60's is by itself insane. Oh, and he was DEFINITELY CLEAN. Dear Lord. You want to tell me that the guy who ran 3:33 on a dirt track with no pacing on what shoes probably only marginally better than Chuck Taylor's couldn't run with El G if he had been coached by Salazar and had been doped out of his mind? Of course, I don't think Ryun would ever dope, but just imagine if he did, man.
5. Argument for Webb being #1: as has been said by many, he has an American record and he was the best in the world for a brief period of time. It's a real shame he never came home with championship hardware as he certainly had the talent and drive to do so, but for reasons that have been discussed until the cows came home, left again, and came back again, it didn't happen. Webb was also the guy who set these kinds of expectations for everyone. He was shattering that glass ceiling for people like Centro and Rupp. All of that said, even though I am a huge Webb guy, I give Centro a slight edge over Webb due to his consistency over several years, his essentially equal 1500m time, and of course his hardware and Olympic gold beating a really really loaded field.
***in summary***
It's a close call right now. If he were to set a 1500 or mile WR, he would DEFINITELY be #1, but that seems extremely unlikely. As others have stated, the two holes in his resume are that he hasn't set any time records and that he hasn't exhibited dominance against international competition in non-championship races. If he wins a couple of fast Diamond League meets AND sets the AR in the 1500 and/or mile, I would give him a slight edge over Ryun. If he performs very well in fast races over the next year or two, wins another championship gold, and runs 3:27.xx, I would put him definitely #1.
jjjjjj wrote:
breaking 3:50 would be a start. If he takes down the American records at 1500m and mile and wins a bunch of big races, then he'll be there.
His metric equivalent is already well under 3:50, plus he owns the one thing that Lagat, Ryun, Scott, Webb, etc., all lack - a GOLD medal. He is damn close to sub-3:30 for the 1500, which I believe only two other Americans have done, both non-native born. But a 3:29 print just sounds a lot faster than 3:30.xx, so I would say, if he can do that, he's the GOAT American, at least at the 1500.
However, the thread title asked about the best American miler, so, yeah, he needs to break 3:50 by a pretty good margin.
AR in the mile would make him a lock as the GOAT, at least for now.
AR in the 1500 but not the mile would basically be the same, but there would be that small little asterisk that he technically doesn't have the fastest mile time by an American.
"Had Murphy been in that 1500m Centro had a coin flip's chance of being the 2nd best American that day. Murphy is has proved himself a great racer and is faster over 400 than Centro. That slow pace could have been perfect for Murphy's 45.X 400 meter speed."
At least 5 guys (probably more) have faster 400 speed than Centro (and one of those beat Murphy in the 800). None of them beat him that day.
They call it a "race" for a reason. It's not some computer program that you punch in some numbers, run some simulations, and then print out a winner. It's what you do on that day, based of those tactics that matters.
Murphy was not there. There is not way in heck you know what he would have done that day if he had run.
1. Needs to break the american record in the 1500m
2. Needs to break the american record in the mile
3. Needs to run 3:26 point whatever
Your welcome
Smile- So, you are telling me if Centro ended his career with pb's of 3:29.7 and 3:46.99 (Not AR's), but ended with medals:
2011: WC bronze
2012: 4th OG (I think 2nd-3rd eventually)
2013: WC silver
2016: I WC Gold, OG GOLD
2017: WC Gold
2019: WC Silver
2020: OG Gold
you STILL would not consider him the best US miler of all time??
With these times I'd consider him America's best ever.
How does he compare to Ovett who never had Olympic gold in the 1500 Who would you say is better?